Episode 47: Congee, Cornrows & Coachella: Cultural Appreciation vs. Appropriation

Jae 0:00

I pledge myself to the pod. Loyal I'll always be a p to start a D at the end, and an O sitting in between. Welcome back to and I'm Jae like the letter.

Angela 0:16

And I'm Angela also known as AVO.

welcome today's birth month.

Woohoo,

Jay, how old are you going to be this year for the people?

It is the fifth anniversary of my 21st birthday.

There we go.

Don't worry everyone, you will be getting weekly reminders leading up until the day. I mean, we're actually releasing an episode on the day I will be in Disneyland we will be in Disneyland. We can phrase it that way. But like my birth mother is there is an i in birthday and in birth month.

Jae 0:46

Okay, so do you have any special requests for birth month that have not already been voiced? Has anything come to you in the past few days?

Angela 0:54

Surprisingly, there were a lot of like little gifts I want this year not like oh, everyone has to give me gifts. But whenever you know, your family asked you what do you want? And it's like, I want a house. But like that's not really or polite gift to ask for. There are like a lot of little things like now that I'm such an avid reader. I'm almost out so there are two books on my list, Rene Browns Atlas of the heart, I think it's like she goes through the 37 emotions and like what breaks them all down. 37? 87?. So don't know, don't forget, and Gabrielle Union's new autobiography I want to get because she talks about like her infertility struggles and Peri metropass. Yes, I like her in general. So that one, and then I need a corresponding Dumbell. So I have like an eight pound and a 10 pound. But like I need the corresponding ones because i have i've been like kind of trying to mix and match with like my fives and my threes. And it's just like not working, my hands are too small. So I just like the corresponding one. This isn't a list for anyone on here. Particularly because I do a family lesson just to buy me these things. These are some of the few things I've been able to think about accumulate. I also have a great gift that I found for my friend Laura for her birthday, which I will be offering when we get to November.

Jae 1:58

Very nice. Now this is such a functional list this year. I really like it. I know

Angela 2:03

what happens when you lose health insurance, you need to work on things that help your health, your brain health, your physical health, because I losing my mother's health insurance in the coming weeks.

That is that's just the eternal struggle of your 20s. Because even if you graduate and you immediately like go into a job with health insurance, like you're not necessarily sticking with that job. Like I think they say Nowadays, people at our age range will change jobs every two to three years.

Jae 2:30

Well yeah, for the payload wild.

But I'm like every two to three years. If you are working in an industry where your job offers your main form of healthcare, you could be switching healthcare providers, you might not be able to stay with your same doctor like that's Oh, that gives me so much anxiety.

Angela 2:47

See, and this is where we reflect on the years we could have gone for that Mrs. degree, right?

I see and technically I even have one that Oh yeah, they say English is a big Mrs. degree. Oh, sorry.

I thought you meant like you. You were a missus. I was like, Did I miss something? Oh, no, no, no.

Jae 3:03

No. So what I was always told in college was that English history and any form of language. That's where you were working just to say that you went to college, but you were there you were there to meet someone.

Angela 3:16

Emily Gilmore did have an art history degree she

did. Did anyone ever say that to you? Um, no. But I actually I was reminded a few days ago that one time when I was waiting in line to pick up takeout at a restaurant, someone did fully interrogate me while I was working for the nonprofit about where did my money come from? Did my parents support me? Did my husband support me? Did I have a trust fund because their mind was just blown. I could volunteer for a nonprofit and not make any money. Was it a man it was a man? Yes, a middle aged man just decided to you know, completely pick apart my life. While I was just waiting for some hotlinks and ribs. It was very sad because you know, I was already hangry. This is happening. And I very nicely explained to him that people who work for nonprofits do actually get paid. It's just that the company as a whole, they are not in it to continually amass wealth. They put the money that they make into their employees and back into the company for the programming or services that they offer. Yeah, but

I feel like we're seeing the more and more documentaries about nonprofits, we need a new term.

Yes. So there are a lot of nonprofits that do not function that way they like to pad the salaries have the salaries that they're handing out and things like that. So it's like if you're going to work for a nonprofit if you're going in for the right reasons, our favorite phrase from the bachelor, really look into what the company is doing, what their mission statement is, who their board of directors are, where they are leading that company because it's not just the people who work there and the CEOs like that board of directors is really steering where everything is headed. The more you know, ladies and gentlemen, so today since I actually started talking about food, Jay, what's your favorite food french

Jae 4:57

fries

Okay, all right. French fries. Do you know where french fries come from

Angela 5:03

Belgium?

Yes, they do a good job Okay, do you believe that only french fries in Belgium can be called french fries?

Well they call them palm fruit,

Jae 5:11

don't they? Well, yes, but isn't that like technically like in Dutch? Yes Dutch going with Dutch belt Belgian means it's not that was my attempt at a joke was really scratched

Angela 5:20

from the record. No. Yes. No,

it's it's a very open and mixed topic and my incredibly awkward segue into food, food and cultural appropriation. Yes. Do you see where we're going? Yeah, no, okay. All right. So yeah, so I guess Okay, french fries made outside of Belgium dill french fries Yes. Yeah. And I think that's generally where everything sits but in

you started this bit you have to finish I know

I wasn't expecting you to go with something as simple as french fries. Today, ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about cultural appropriation and one of the big debates going on right now within the realm of education for us all around the world is whether or not food and recipes can fall into the realm of things that can be appropriated The answer is yes so I thought that maybe we would start with our favorite fruit favorite our we would start with our favorite foods and then we could work our way through into other topics of conversation hair and fashion and music and go from there

Jae 6:25

sounds good to me just because these are always so fun. These are our personal opinions we try to say as educated as we can and we're always open to hearing different and or more information that we're more than willing to change our minds and grow from these opinions. take it with a grain of salt be a good person don't litter say please thank you

Angela 6:42

and in the interest of friends fries maybe include is defer to another really bad joke we're just gonna strike all of these today guys. Oh yeah,

Jae 6:49

I definitely think like in general food can definitely be appropriated. Oh my god. Most recently. They're one of our main sources of content, entertainment and reasons we come up with this podcast tik tok. There's this woman who press present a white American woman who decided to reinvent congee the traditional I really don't know but like the Asian port thing and basically do it with oatmeal variations like blueberries and sugar and do all these things like American congee No,

Angela 7:19

you can't take a food from another culture and then rebrand it as the American version that doesn't exist

Jae 7:28

like American Mahjong which we can get into a little odd this was like literally the same thing I think we're very nuanced people and we can get things really small so I think this is a such a nuanced conversation. Because for example, like I'm going like broader for a second in a world where I choose to be vegan and I want to replicate orange chicken or mushroom chicken or so I grew up eating or whether you're Asian or not just the concept of making a food vegan that's not stereotypical vegan I think it's just some depending on the way you do it could be considered appropriation when there are all these restaurants having like we made this vegan Chinese food and we are not Chinese and we're well yeah, usually have some soy sauce and chili flakes and call it a day like it's very easy to appropriate other cultures food and there's also a good ignorance behind it because if you think like I do, like find a way to make all these like vegan asian recipes, then you clearly don't understand like I'm saying Asian, but go into each East Asian, South Asian, North Asian country and like they all have already food that is vegan because people are vegan in those cultures. So rather than like we're gonna make like Panda Express vegan, you can like eat the vegan food of the cultures rather than the only little glimpses but you've gotten a feel for that you've tried before. My main base of food is dominantly Asian food, I have the least fussiness with it, I can normally go to any Asian restaurant and like order of any menu, versus like, for me, I've been called like a very adventurous picky eater, because there are certain more American slash like I'm using air quotes, like simple things I do not like that are very common. But then on the other hand, like, I'll eat a lot of like, non traditional food, and I'll try some weirder things.

Angela 9:10

And it's it's interesting that you actually brought up Asian food in this because the whole article that sparked this, for me was a debate on whether or not restaurants that incorporated Asian fusion into their menus, were appropriating. And generally I think when it comes to fusion, if it's done in the right way, no, it's not appropriation because you're trying to blend two things together. And just through the very idea that its fusion is infused together. You're not claiming that anything is authentic, or you're grabbing from something that is very traditionally eaten, you're mixing a lot of different things together, but where it becomes like a separate issue for me is when restaurants open and they claim to be like oh, like where the clean good, authentic organic version of this cultures cuisine, but A lot of restaurants here in the US aren't really necessarily like authentic Chinese, Mexican, Indian, Japanese, Korean, Italian, whatever, it's all been changed to try to meet past tastes of the American palate. And now that there's been a shift in the way that people want to eat here, they're looking more towards those traditional recipes where things are a little bit lighter, maybe a little simpler, like leaning less towards starches and fats and thickenings I have sauces as a big one that comes up like a lot of people are moving away from like the thick sauces and into like more broth and they're like, Oh, it's clean and good, but yeah, oh my god, you're looking at me like so crazy right now.

Jae 10:40

I just think it shows a big ignorance with the American palate. I'm making a very vast generalization here but it's like one of the best places to be vegan or vegetarian. is India

Angela 10:50

exactly going clean.

Jae 10:52

I'm reading a book now about like Korean cuisine and how people have like made fun of like kimchi and the smell of it. But like one of the philosophies and granted I'm not going to get the book out right now. The book is called the birth of Korean cool and talks about Korean culture and how they spread throughout the world with the pop culture, technology and everything from splitting off from North Korea. But one of the things is Korea had a thing where it's like eating like five colors on your plate eating very clean, but like they get bullshit for kimchi because it smells different. And it's like serving the country so healthy. It's fermented with the prebiotics, probiotics, all the good things, but when like you hear people talk about cultural food for some reason, like when you think of like Mexican food, lots of extra cheese, the melty, greasy food like sour cream on everything. So many cultures have so many foods beyond what you can get out like a Mexican restaurant or a Chinese restaurant or whatever. Where oh, I don't like Chinese food. It's really greasy. It's like you don't know enough about it. That'd be saying like Americans only eat burgers and fries, which is also very greasy.

Angela 11:51

Yeah, no. And so the thing that like specifically struck me about the sauces was like for Chinese food. We were like, oh, like I don't want to eat like the Mandarin chicken, the general tso's chicken, the love and chickens are all from very thick and like they just cover fried foods. And so those aren't actually considered to be like traditional, like Chinese cuisine, like they were created here in the United States for Americans, which apparently was actually a really big thing as well because at one point in like the early 1900s, when they tried to stop immigration from China and other Asian countries, the only people who could get visas to come in and start businesses were restaurant tours. So it's literally like the only way they could come to this country and make a living and then they had to feed people what they would eat. It's super annoying when you like Mexican food. I really don't want to like eat all like the greasy beans refried beans are such an American thing granted I love them they're my favorite form of beans that's just where I go with it but if you were to go to Mexico any Latin American country they might give you beans at a restaurant but it's generally for tourists and it's a really small amount it's not a main portion of the meal not like here where beans cover half of your plate

Jae 13:03

we've both had the fortune of like going abroad and it's like the United States is like the wealthiest country in the world like start there and so it's also like what's looked up upon if you're rich but not if you're poor it's like cooking your own food eating from the earth natural foods like there's this great series on Netflix my cousin shows me about them like making big potatoes in the ground as they grow them oh in China I don't remember the series called but the cinematography is beautiful on it. Countries that aren't as well off in the US don't have the privilege to process food so you're eating whole foods you're eating like really good food like I remember when the wonderful because fries and going to Spain and eating like Paya like the food is fresh The food is good because they're not like doing as much the supply chain isn't as long.

Angela 13:49

Yeah, they don't need to use as many preservatives or they don't treat their livestock with hormones. Like I found out that the whole like the yellow yoke totally a US thing in other countries. It's orange. Yeah, Canada,

Jae 14:02

they were the brightest yokes I've ever seen in their lives process because like I don't know it was pasteurization bad because I know in other places you don't refrigerating because they're pasteurized. Does that make a difference? better or worse?

Angela 14:13

I don't know either.

Jae 14:14

I just know when you when I didn't refrigerate eggs. It really scared me.

Angela 14:17

I know for us, at least because everything here is pasteurized. Like it's a little harmful when you go to other places. And it's not because our immune system just isn't set up for it.

Jae 14:28

Going back to things MSG.

Angela 14:30

Oh my god. Okay, again, something used for American taste buds. It's not necessary. It's not a part of anyone's cuisine. It's not a naturally occurring food, well, salt, salt, seasoning, whatever it exactly is.

Jae 14:47

I'm speaking from what I've heard from other Asian chefs and other people so incorrect, so we'll probably put some in the description or whenever we start doing show notes again about this but like MSG is no worse than a lot of the other preservatives and chemicals that go And food is a heightened mommy sense that goes into a lot of typical Chinese dishes. But like it's not as bad as people say it is it's only worse than using a crap ton of salt or a crap ton of other seasonings and flavorings and artificial things in your food.

Angela 15:14

You just a cup of noodles, will that has MSG in it. It will Exactly. It's like people are like, Oh, I'm eating cup of noodles. And this is awesome. But if they go to a restaurant and they see MSG, they're like, oh, if this is a low brow food.

Jae 15:27

The other thing of like restaurants needing to uplift cuisines. Like I went to insert country here and like I don't feel like they're getting enough for presentation. So let's I'm going to do

Angela 15:37

it. Oh my god, right part of another article that I read was about how traditionally within the American mindset, Chinese, Mexican, or Latin American and Indian food are all considered to be underrepresented and they need to find ways to like elevate them and use better ingredients when actually it's just that a lot the entire mindset surrounding it, it's not that they're actually underrepresented, or they're not using good quality ingredients to create the best food that they can. It's just that they're traditionally seen as like the cheaper fast options and so if someone was to go to one of these restaurants and see prices upwards of like $25 a plate like something more like 30 to 45 they might automatically categorize it as like trying too hard on these restaurants normally close or they'll not attend and then I think that goes back to the whole thing of like where people decide that they need to step in and saying like oh well let me help you like I'm going to show you how your food can be better and it's like let me as a chef from outside of your culture show you how to make your food better and this isn't to say that only people from within a culture should be able to make food from that culture that's not what it is at all It's just that it is particularly if you are outside of said foods cultural home base, be respectful about how you're doing it Don't try to rename dishes Don't try to say that you're offering an authentic cuisine like I don't care how many years you studied it how many years you've traveled around said country your there are still so many little things about the dishes that you're just you can spend years doing it but it's like they're just some things you're just not gonna get from living within it like having those things passed down to you like in my family and they won't give me any of our recipes at all. Like I'm not in their eyes. I'm not worthy. Another topic for another day. Even within your own culture, you might be seen as unworthy

Unknown Speaker 17:32

sharing. You're welcome

Angela 17:35

that was just sitting in me. It was weighing on your heart. It was Yes.

Jae 17:38

Yeah, it's just mind boggling. I mean, see, I'm where I'm getting a little bit conflicted of like kind of your last statement is like now I feel like we're really kind of talking about the appreciate and appropriation conversation because the thing is like I do agree that there's a certain amount of growing up in a place with the culture with generations of knowledge but I don't think that means someone who came in studied and is living as authentically as they can from the time they started, could not be on par it would always be a little bit different like there would always be an Asterix of not not for the same but it doesn't mean it couldn't be as good and quality and everything else and that they're not authentically doing the techniques and things train them and I think going back a bit for fusions with I've always made fusion food personal it I always used to love getting like chips and salsa and then like getting like sushi like I was I would always like mix and match foods because I think cultures do flavor palettes so differently. It's nice like Korean tacos is one of my favorite things to do at home I'll make the Bulldog weave and then do like avocado, green onions, sesame seeds, again a tortilla or like I know a lot of people they're like they're in Bologna fries which are taken Kirt carne asada fries sushi burritos were like you're eating sushi in the form of a burrito there are so many ways to do it and I think it's different when you're doing that because like you said it's a fusion it's a bringing together but like when people think they can do it better without any stance it's just the audacity

Angela 19:00

literally the audacity white cisgender six to male Audacity. Alright, I feel like we've gotten very heated about food festival fashion. So I know Coachella comes under a lot of fire for this. Like whenever anyone thinks about cultural appropriation and fashion Coachella is always the first to come to mind. It might be the worst like I don't think I've seen anything all festivals though. Exactly. I don't think I've seen anything like more flagrant than I've seen at Coachella It was like but all festivals do it. I

Jae 19:33

mean, not only that, I know unfortunately I share my birth month of this Halloween.

Angela 19:38

Anytime when people feel that they have an opportunity to dress outside of the day to day in costume. There's always like there are some lines that should not be pushed and yet it seems every year we still come right up against those lions in terms of what we're seeing.

Jae 19:54

Let's start up like at the top of we can get more nuanced Okay. Do not darken or light Your skin tone I don't care if you are a European who tans very well then you we tan and we'll go into the fold but what are the new if you naturally tan like a Greek freaking goddess Good for you. But do not intentionally lighten or darken your skin tone unless you are an animal or an

Angela 20:20

alien. Yeah, here here that's kind of the end of it

Jae 20:24

if I want it to be I mean I don't know it's hard for me because I don't even have enough Asian people I can dress up for Halloween whenever I'm trying to pick from another culture but like let's say I wanted to be

Angela 20:35

I was gonna go with like Beyonce in the lemonade video or some sure like, I'm gonna do like BB on say, I have pretty good hair on my own and hers is highlighted. I could get more hair and I could dress and like all I remember is like one and make a big fur coat and some cool sunglasses or the single is kind of simple. Yeah, you wear a black bodysuit and then like you just shake, shake your hand around a little Yeah, if you want to get really into it, get the really really big Jay Z engagement ring in there, bump up your hair a little bit and you are Beyonce and the Single Ladies, ladies video costumes are about your dress. It's never about what your skin color looks like what your hair color looks like, what your hair texture is like your eye color. None of that is a factor in who you are dressing up as and I don't know why that is such a big debate every year. I know one of the things that this hasn't happened to me so much as an adult. But when I was a child and I would talk about Halloween with everyone I'd say like oh like I'm going to be Cinderella. They're like oh, like don't you maybe want to be Pocahontas or Jasmine. No, I want to be Cinderella and then when I very clearly wore my Cinderella costume to school the kind that like had like the little like Cinderella like cameo like in the belt or something people asked me still are like, Oh, are you a blue princess? No, I'm Cinderella. Why is the fact that I'm not blonde? Why does that take away from my not being Cinderella in costume.

Jae 22:01

I agree. I think the other thing though, which I think this is a little nuanced is like when it does come to children. I don't think you should be skin color again is like a non issue and we're not covering skin tone anymore on this but it's like it is different dressing up as Pocahontas or Mulana when you are a child and when you are an adult because I think kids have a big association with the app it's different because when you're a kid you can buy the physical costume through Disney or through a thing and when you're an adult and you're trying to make shift it i think is where it can get a little dicey here.

Angela 22:32

I agree. And I know that this is part of a larger conversation but personally like my issue has never been Oh like you are portraying yourself you picked up like a black character to dress up as you picked an Asian character to dress up as or a lot next character to me it's always been about what you want to represent or what you want to not even represent but just what you want to play with. But I feel like les has been damaging. And so now we have to like hold back a

Jae 23:02

lot more. See I think of it even like larger than that. I don't think not trying to shift too much. But it's like, I don't think and I could be completely wrong. I don't think getting cornrows and braids would be such a debate if we stopped killing unarmed black people or gave reparations or treated these cultures that have been typically disrespected gave them the respect they deserve outside of these costumes, because I think one of the points of it is they're treated as a costume as different as it's okay to be this on one day because I'm being someone else I'm doing something different when there are people everyday walk through these lots and have these cultures and do these things. You're on this one day, she's like, I want to be different. I want to just like any American, but it's like Like, for example, something that I'm going to try to do every Thanksgiving is like someone pointed this out. And I was like it's a little thing and I can do more and I'm going to say unto herself donate to a Indian Reservation on Thanksgiving or Native American reservation excuse me for Thanksgiving because the reason we all celebrate it is not because oh my god like what they did that day was so great. It's because it's the day that we were taught to show gratitude and show thanks for our family and getting to be together and our health and our community, which is a great sentiment that we've evolved into

Angela 24:14

what we were taught as children is every day like the equivalent of us celebrating the purge. Yes, dear god,

Jae 24:22

yes. So finding ways to try to give back to communities that we celebrate from my point knowing and appreciating cultures. We did a better job at that. And during every other day, I'm not saying I'm going to go around and cornrows or I'm going to go around and doing these things. But I think the reason it's so noticeable is because those are the tangible things that reflect the darker and deeper issues of cultural appropriation.

Angela 24:45

Well, I agree. And then I think to your point as well like saying, like, Oh, I want to dress up as a Native American, don't just pick an archetype like don't say you want to dress up as like a Native American or a cool Asian or like a hip hop star. At least pick someone or something to Trouble and say like that is what you're trying to emulate because otherwise like you're you're just trying to like present yourself as a stereotype and that's not helping you or whatever people are affected by said stereotype that you're dressing up as

Jae 25:14

speaking of holidays during go de Mio

Angela 25:17

so for anyone out there who may not know this cinco demayo is not actually anyone's Independence Day. Well actually, no, that's wrong is a day that celebrates I'm not even sure if it's Mexico, I'll have to check this it's either Mexico or some other Latin American countries independent from France in some sort of like itty bitty tiny little bottle. Actual Mexican Independence Day as in they became their own sovereign country is September 16. Several other Latin American countries have other independence days also in September and early October, which is why we actually know how Hispanic Heritage Month which spans from mid September to mid October, nationally, nationally, yes, it gets a little bit more complex because individual states have particularly California we have a lot of other Hispanic representation days throughout the year celebrating Mexico and the way that the former Mexican citizens who then became Californians when this land was sold to the United States, how they helped shape our state, we honor them but other countries other countries feel like other countries sometimes other states like Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, they don't have as many of those days or the same days. So definitely look into your national days. Look into your state days. cinco demayo is another American made holiday for non Latin x people to think that they're doing something more others and celebrating them when they're not I know a lot of Mexican restaurants will happily take your money and give you Margarita as an exchange but you're really wholly missing the mark. Well, I

Jae 26:53

didn't even say Cinco de Mayo

Angela 26:54

oh yes you said drink go de Mio is that I thought that was Cinco de vie. It was

Jae 26:57

but if but we shouldn't even be celebrating Cinco de Mayo let alone renaming it typically in the context that I know of it as a white fraternities calling it drink go de Mayo Yeah, it's different if it was Latin dominant fraternities doing it because I'm not in the Latin community so therefore I'm not going to say what isn't isn't appropriate for it we're just like how it Jumanji it's not my not my organization to critique but like drinker de Mio from every white fraternity on campus

Angela 27:27

guys just stick with bro Chela if you need one well going

Jae 27:33

I think it is like a very Alliance or very bored like for example we're currently planning on going to a festival knock on wood that like it happens soon and Angela sending me some makeup that she was considering for the day of Halloween that like might actually happen and I like asked her like it's I don't know what you want to reveal about it sounds like it's from some like some nerd thing and it's like some white face paint and the look I'm doing also has some like white incorporated on the face but mine is much clearly more like galaxy not do any show your picture

Angela 28:03

well no I've since looked it up looked it up since our original costumes were going to be so similar and I mean I get it I think that yours is a lot more well known in pop culture

Jae 28:16

but I think the placement is also way you guys can't see me. Mine is a much more around my eyes and it's like curly q versus yours because it's more angular with lines and dots. Yeah,

Angela 28:28

so for all of you out there well we'll see if I actually do this but I was considering dressing up as a so Caetano from Star Wars The Clone Wars many of you may only know her currently from the Mandalorian but she's a very big player in Star Wars The Clone Wars if you haven't watched that, and she and so our group is considering dressing up as like aliens together for the actual Halloween day. So if I'm going to dress up as an alien, I want to pick someone who I not only feel comfortable with but who I feel like would be a good representation of alien because I already Oh, I've been thinking a lot about this I'm like should we even be calling ourselves aliens? Should we be non humanoid creatures very complicated, but I didn't want to just show up in neon and some glitter and be like,

Unknown Speaker 29:14

oh Whoo,

Angela 29:15

I'm an alien.

Jae 29:16

Wait for the Instagram pics. And some bright neon and glitter.

Angela 29:20

I know right? Yes, I picked us Oh Caetano and so I sent it to Jake's I was like, What do you think of this? And I mean, frankly, like you raised a question that I hadn't even thought of because in my world everyone knows who that is. Of course like no one would look at that and think that I am culturally appropriating some sort of like Native American war paint or something like that but frankly, who knows that's probably most likely what I could end up getting all day

Jae 29:47

cuz also like her face isn't blue right? Just the hair is blue. If I recall the photos

Angela 29:53

Yeah, so her. I forget what they're called. But yeah, it's like blue and white. And then her skin tone is more of an orangey reddish color with white buttons will change our skin tone Yes, since we don't change our skin tone and I plan on just having a nice good base tan from our time and Disneyland I was just going to put on some of the white

Jae 30:14

face paint and my only question was and gritted I also we'll have some sort of a white sticker thing on my face. So this isn't that I'm much I'm much safer just the differences because of our ethnicities, it's a lot less likely I'm going to get asked if I'm appropriating from a culture that Angela would be being

Angela 30:32

Whoa, okay, see, I can see either people asking if I'm appropriating or people asking me if I'm trying to honor my native American heritage, neither of the which you would like, correct. I would not appreciate either of those questions. Frankly, I think if you Oh, okay, this is this gets into an even more complex turn of conversation. But if you're ever unsure of something like in terms of like, if someone's wearing something because of their heritage, what someone's heritage is how they culturally identify what their ethnicity is, frankly, even more I don't know why we think it's okay to ask people their nationality, wait until you're invited to do so don't just go up to people and ask them like That's so rude. And frankly, I know from just past experience, because I get asked that question I try to leave openings in conversations for people and I know that a lot of other people who might be like racially ambiguous or have more complex histories than can meet the eye they also try to do this so it's like they'll make statements or like they'll ask questions that gives people the opportunity to ask questions back or to reveal a little bit more about themselves so that people might feel comfortable asking questions down the line is to not just start with those questions like when you meet someone that's like Hi, so where are you from?

Jae 31:44

Yeah, no bueno. Yeah, going back to a few episodes ago we had one of the girls I was talking with honor here one of the points she brought up that I'd ever thought about was like how when people ask us our nationality or ask it's not like they congratulations you found the needle in the haystack we weren't born in this country we're adopted and that's like the thing of like, we'll set the mind so like let's say you were Native American and you did do a Native American thing for a festival would I don't know why you would public let's just say you did if people came up to you knew even though you're not giving permission by you doing at a setting where everyone else is doing it and therefore the person of the culture is approving like they're even doing it for Coachella like it's complicated because that makes it even harder. Yeah,

Angela 32:26

exactly. Oh and I think I don't know I feel like at this point no one should need to hear this but just putting it out there again just because you may have friends or family extended family or someone like outside of your culture and another culture that you're like borrowing from or dressing up from just because they say it's okay it doesn't mean it necessarily is okay they're one people a few people they don't speak for everyone so please be cognizant of that.

Jae 32:55

Okay, well I think we're on time to get into more like I think this is the most nuanced you can really get to this conversation I don't disagree with you but I also don't think it's just a statement you can make like just like that simply either of like social media is like the biggest perpetrator of this before example there is a woman who married a Korean man she was white and was wearing traditional thing for like Lunar New Year and got blasted on social media like news articles for her wearing traditional garb for this thing when her mother in law who is the Asian when asked her to wear it and that happens a lot and so the thing is, I think that and I'm not saying you were saying that but I think it's like everyone could feel a different way about her doing it. But it's not necessarily an opinion to be expressed when this was a family affair but then it goes to the question well she'd post on social media if she didn't post conversation just it's a whole lot more nuanced when it does come to blendings and cultures and weddings of families because thing of like people basically the story so Angela, when we get married, essentially like if I like started making tamales with your family and I got really good at it because I know that's something your family knows I'm not being racist like Angela's told me for Holi parties it is a point of reference that I have and it's like, I like did it and then like one day like I made them for you or something and like did it and it's a thing of like, not Oh, I did it better. But like I did them like on par with the way like your family did it because I appreciate it and wanted to do it. Like I don't think that it should be something to have to get my head bitten off over from the public because like it's not affecting you. It's not impacting you, how my family, how our family chooses to handle such things. And I think that I agree you can feel a different way about it and the people of that culture, the only people who really make that decision, but also knowing like a person of your culture, gave them that so like who are you to be telling another person of your culture to not do

Angela 34:45

it? No, I completely agree. And I think like both of those examples, like wearing the Lunar New Year outfit and making tamales with my family. Those are examples of when like you are invited into a culture and Like you said, it's like not necessarily everyone in the public knows that so I think that there are a lot of people that like to look and judge initially before they have a full story because I'm sure and say for example in this woman's caption, she probably put in something about like celebrating Lunar New Year with my husband's family and she doesn't have to explain that like her mother in law wanted her to wear that but it's like it's very clearly an example where she just didn't decide that she up and wanted to celebrate Korean Lunar New Year on her own and like dress up in her apartment like just because it was like she was doing it with her family. And I think that speaks to a larger issue about when we look at people and we decide that we want to make arbitrary lines about what cultures they can or cannot be a part of.

Jae 35:47

I think we're hitting now the whole appreciation part of cultures and other things. We're not perfect like for example, I was reflecting on this a little bit ago when I was like nine my mom and I went to the Bahamas for a few weeks a great time there was a woman a very nice woman who is doing like horn rows or tight braids on the street and it looks pretty and I wanted to get my hair done my mother only let me get a few because I have a lot of hair and it would take a long time and it was like $5 a braid or something so like it was gonna do but like I had the cute little braids with a little beads at the end I got to pick the colors I'm sure I picked pain it was really fun. And it's a thing of like nowadays if my mother who's white and me took a picture in the Bahamas and it got posted on social media like we could get canceled like that and it's like we weren't I'm not saying oh because we paid for but like we were in a place where the local we were we were giving money to this woman her small business or whatever she did I don't remember she was woman who worked for the hotel or she had like pottery or whatever but she was just offering the service and it's the thing of like I don't think that's like a cancelable events in the Bahamas. That's the way a lot of the women were wearing their hair and

Angela 36:49

yeah, no i i agree with you and I think that it comes into the whole particularly with hair like there's the idea of is it appreciation or eraser nowadays it's like if you were to have this done and you came back and you said like oh like I had like Bahama braids No, you had cornrows or like you had a What is it? It's it is a different name if it's like half to your scalp and then hanging down boxspring no that's true it's with an F but oh I didn't write this one down but yeah it's like there's a few yeah there's a term for it it's like particular like with Bulldog with hair braiding honoring the name is like does a lot or the culture the community that people who wear them because like you're not saying like oh I'm adopting this hairstyle for like every single day but you're like I'm in your country I'm trying this out like I think it's cute It's like an I want to wear it and not then say like oh look at what I did on vacation this is like this new like vacation style that everyone should do and every every single time you go on vacation correct I was thinking about this as well like mine was also hair Coachella bass buns not space buttons they are called bantu knots

Jae 38:01

I do know and I have seen bantu knots done but all space buns are bantu knots not

Angela 38:07

all space floods but like

Jae 38:08

all squares or rectangles or squares.

Angela 38:12

Um, it's it's definitely like it inspired by kinds of things so it's like if you're doing a particular style so I didn't know was that and my friend who did them for me She called them space funds she called her space bonds but they were actually bantu knots you should tell so yeah, so I think it's it's one of those things where it's like on Pinterest you'll see a lot of different tutorials for like face buns, mini buttons, things like that, but like part of it is that a lot of people present it as like oh this is just something like cute that I saw or something that I came up with and a lot of people don't necessarily know the origins and so it's they're not purposely doing anything harmful on their part. They're not actively trying to participate in the ratio but there are people who will maliciously put it out there and see like there's a style and then rename it and then say I came up with this this is the way to do it. And that's where it's absolutely not okay,

Jae 39:04

I agree. There's this again a woman on tik tok I don't know her username but she is a I don't know if she's just white passing or full white she is in ginger, who has four bc hair. So for those of you don't know there's like a scale of how curly wavy Your hair is to help dial us to design products and how to cut it and all those lovely things we could do a whole episode about hair one day This isn't it basically she used to wear her hair and cornrows because of the texture of her hair liked cornrows. It needed the protective styling just like typically black and brown people do and she stopped because she she wants to be better and so she asked like the black community How do I do my hair? How do I style my hair? What can I do do it and then you got the mixed results some black woman I do the cornrows. It's fun. I don't care. And then you want to the other half who were like No, don't do it. Like try these instead. And it's not like oh woe is this poor woman. But it's the thing that's hard of like her hair texture is the same problem that these black and brown people go through. So it's not like oh, well she should just get to do Former she's entitled to do cornrows in her hair. But it's the thing I like the reason cornrows started was because they needed it to protect from the breakage that typically finer hair need.

Angela 40:11

It hair is very complicated. And I think that because it's your hair is something that naturally occurs, you know, that's the way that I always think of it in terms of like, Where Where does cultural appropriation begin? It's like you can't necessarily appropriate something that occurs naturally like I don't think when people straighten their hair that's cultural appropriation because straight hair is naturally occurring and curly hair is naturally occurring I would do so I think that straightening your hair and perming your hair not necessarily appropriation there are ways in which you can then style it that are appropriated which I think is where it gets complicated and then it's like oh well it's like To what degree of straightness is naturally occurring To what degree of curling is naturally occurring and those are also important topics but just like for the purpose statement here they're both naturally occurring but I think it's like when you get into style specifically that is the appropriate part to see

Jae 41:07

I agree but I think like everything when you talk about this conversation of appropriate appreciation privilege impression of straight hair is what is double straight hairs what is desire straight hairs what is fold to us only last year, I think in California was there a law passed that made it so naturally hair that not that women who had naturally curly hair could wear it to work without any restrictions.

Angela 41:33

Like I think in that respect, it brings up a conversation of assimilation, not necessarily appropriation

Jae 41:40

yes but my only point of being like when people who have curly hair straighten their hair versus me deciding who has the natural desired hair type to put on cornrows cuz that's all Kendall Jenner do we get them all people that's those aren't the same conversation and speaking of I personally don't think we can talk about appropriation without talking about the lovely Kardashian clan

Angela 41:59

Oh yeah. When I googled celebrity cultural appropriation they were the first 15 articles

Jae 42:05

again I think it goes back to this all of them have biracial children and are raising biracial children into this world and it only takes one person not to know your Psalm list for you to be treated like any other black man in this country. And granted they're gonna have security and privileges and things for life. They're taking traits BB ELLs the tiny ways people give Kim Kardashian a lot of credit for changing the body standards which I don't disagree she did Kim Kardashian change the body standard of women today that is not Kim Kardashian is natural body and even when it was she didn't dress like it was her natural body. She dressed away that women who did have a full body got looked down upon

Angela 42:54

no i think that again too like with the hair like a lot of things that came up for Kim Kardashian or that like when she gets her hair braided she doesn't refer to it as corn rose or I can't remember any of the other braiding styles right now. But like she'll cite like a stylist to be like oh like I'm wearing this stylist braids she's like I don't want to call them cornrows because I only liked them when this stylist did it so what she's saying is that anytime that she sees this hairstyle on another person she doesn't like it but she likes it when someone who is trendy does do it. Yeah No it's not okay and then I think the same thing with like makeup styles like colors of lipstick like hoop earrings like they're wearing a lot of things that other women are considered unprofessional or low class or on educated like there's there are a lot of there are a lot of very nice words thrown around for wearing large earrings but when the Kardashians wear large earrings, it's trendy it's cool

Jae 43:55

Sorry, I was trying to find the style of braid you were referencing and I found this article on the transport net written by someone named our Bella Arabella Roden and I was just going through and I was trying to find a date because I was like scrolling through trying to find the braids you were for referencing. I think I found them Fulani breeds Yes, but I just want to read you the cornrows section. Okay, cornrows are one of the most on trend hairstyles right now hair is braided close to the scalp using the underhand technique to create raised plaque each one is formed into neat rows which is where the style gets named corners are endlessly adaptable they can be thin or thick combined with other braided styles like mock braids or even used to create a foe undercut or fell off even better corners are a protective style in the last several weeks not too much maintenance which is true but then we get to they go about all these other braids but what is not mentioned in this article is why it's a protective style Why shouldn't be seeing on the list of trendy braids goddess braids braided buns tribal braids cornrows oh my god tribal braids waterfall braids on the same list yarn braid found braids freckle wet, hairstyle like these should not all be on the same list or they I think it's also a thing of like this person I'm sure in intent every other style is either a protective style like a box braid and then you go into like a French braid, but the thing is you need to just not put the two on the same list like I should not be switching I should not be deciding do I want to do box braids, or do I want to do a French braid? Do I want to do a braided ponytail?

Angela 45:23

Oh yeah, also really quick everyone box braids and Dutch braids not interchangeable box braids are not box braids, their weight like boxer braids, boxer? Yeah. Are that those not box braids. I've never heard of boxer braids. Okay, so boxer braids are something new ish going around like last few years. Like when you do the two What? Yeah, they're cornrows. It's too large cornrows. But can you do to French braids? Yeah, but French braids are different than the boxer braids their cornrows? Like when people say like, Oh, um, I just got boxer braids done. They're they're not French braids. They're not Dutch braids. They are cornrows and call them by their name boxer braids that's just referring to the fact that like people decided they were cool once they saw them on boxers

Jae 46:09

Are you saying we're appropriating from the boxing community now?

Angela 46:11

No it's not it's not a no it's again like call call them by their name.

Jae 46:18

I agree. And I think we're not trying to discourage everyone obviously from appreciating cultures. Because we like to appreciate cultures we like to go to restaurants and try new foods and you know places and travel the difference is like Know your place

Angela 46:35

you are not the expert on Italy because you spent three weeks in Italy or you studied abroad in Italy for a year and you

Jae 46:44

did not create your own yoga practice and decide because you went on a pilgrimage you are now the biggest world's yoga guru and can do it better like even doing yoga comes from a spiritual religious place.

Angela 46:59

Yeah No we actually we have a really good friend who did the yoga pilgrimage all of that and I mean she's she's not very upfront about it, but she does incorporate a lot of her teachings into her practice when I say she's not upfront about it. She's not going on Instagram saying like, Oh, I am the expert in this like she shares on her yoga practice but like when you actually attend a teaching of hers then she'll talk about what she's learned not from other teachers not what she's learned because the universe on high handed down to her one day in a core power studio, no offense core power I do like your classes

Jae 47:37

capitalists. I think that's another thing where it comes down to just like the capitalism aspect of this appropriation like when people are making money like this I'm not even gonna get into this American martial bullshit but like these women were trying to sell Mahjong sets that were more accessible and easier to understand selling like they're making money off of these other cultures yoga instructors are making money that could go into the communities which are already underfunded and looked down upon like money is not the end all be all but I do agree you vote with your dollar So spend it in the places of the people who are actually teaching and who have not who have the right but who know this and are a part of this culture because they you are trying to say you want to be a part of because like, I'm not going to go to Angela to teach me about like Italy stuff just because you took Italian for two years, three years, four years, three years,

Angela 48:23

two years. Two years I completely agree and frankly you just brought up something from me from like a couple years ago Do you remember when I told you about white girls were Mexican like these two girls in Ohio or something went to Mexico bought a bunch of blankets and shirts pants things that people were selling on the streets in Mexico and then created a Instagram store called it white girls were Mexican and modeled everything and everything that they bought for like $20 total, they made 1000s of dollars of profit off of because they were like, oh, like you know, we actually like understood what a business model was and like we paid them for their services, but we knew how to actually sell it better right? It's infuriating because I feel like especially even when there are authentic goods that are offered to you on like Amazon or sometimes it's not at see what's the other place that's like Etsy it could or maybe it this even happens on Etsy too, I don't know but there are places that offer like authentic goods for really high markups that are coming from third parties that don't even know that their goods are being sold to other people for like 1000 times more than they can dream of and it's disgusting. That's that's not that's not a proper appreciation and you're not being smart. You're just you're being a jerk. Okay, but actually let's talk about like some good ways that we've seen appreciation.

Jae 49:48

I don't touch your head.

Unknown Speaker 49:50

Yes, that is

Angela 49:51

good. And then when you were very curious, you did ask ahead of time this was

Jae 49:55

after hearing she has a 24 hour hair routine. Like I just touched her Wait what is it what do you need to do to your head that takes 24 hours

Angela 50:04

a lot? not actually a lot of there's a lot of drying time involved but

Jae 50:08

don't put soy sauce on mcgeary sushi or on white rice according to my godfather that's a big no no for Asian oh okay I don't like Nigeria is the one where it's like just the piece of fish on the right yeah there's normally a little piece of wasabi that keeps it together so it's like Cree

Angela 50:22

oh it's preseason for y'all correct

Jae 50:24

um,

Angela 50:25

I will I will apologize to your godfather when I see him because I sometimes put soy sauce on top of my rice bowls.

Jae 50:30

I do too. He gets mad at me ask questions I don't know if I went to animals house for tamale making I would like not inquisitive inquisitive was fever in choir and choir there we go thank God for your Mrs. Fire let's like what do they do by hand? Like if they have like the corn mill thing and you swipe the corn on with the husks and things?

Angela 50:51

Oh yeah, we're not we're not that we're not like that we buy everything premade now

Jae 50:56

I know but the point is to ask questions. Yeah, the way that they do it if any of you saw the crazy rich Asians scene where like, since he was asked like watching the family make dumplings together. Oh yeah. Be polite and ask what you can do. And it's like what's the technique like honor traditions are cool, ask about them.

Angela 51:12

And then you see something that you're really interested in that isn't a part of your culture or like the flow of your day to day life learn as much as you can about it. Don't just try to think of a good example. Oh, like making matcha I can just make matcha every day or I could actually learn about the history of matcha and why it's like different from regular green tea why it's made in a different way why there exists such thing as Dora's ceremonial grade matcha The only module worth drinking. So it's like if you're you see something that you actively want to incorporate in your life learn what you can and then again please don't try to rename it i think i think that's the biggest one for me when I see places that offer tortillas sandwiches or I know I know tortilla wraps are different from like case studies but sometimes I see things that are very clearly case ideas like oh this is our like tortilla Panini Where are you eating? So I see these on Pinterest sometimes and occasionally like sometimes off the beaten track restaurants on like road trips and stuff no you essentially made a case of do please just call it a case of

Jae 52:18

Yeah, I think for me the biggest thing is like it's kind of the opposite and it's the duality thing of like be okay with other people hauling you out but at the same time like know your intentions and know that you are comfortable where your values and morals and so going back to the woman who wore the traditional Lunar New Year garb for her in laws and know that some people aren't going to be okay with it and are going to throw a fit and also know you were asked by the family to do so you love your husband you love your in laws and they are they see it as a sign of appreciating their world and are inviting you in so no both it doesn't give you a path to just do it because you have a friend who says you can do it. And at the same time if it's something that you're really passionate about learning especially if you have children of that culture and want them to get involved and want to get involved with them you know you're doing it for the right reasons and you don't need to explain yourself to the world.

Angela 53:08

Yeah, I think nowadays we're gonna need thicker skins but also we're gonna have to be able to let some of those things in because it's constant learning and growing process. Part of the cultural appropriation conversation is that we'll feel like they're able to gate keep it in a way and say that like there are some things that are that can't be culturally appropriated, which is why I started with food because a lot of the comments that I saw in response to these articles were like, it's just food no one can culturally appropriate it because we all need food to survive, but the way you prepare food exactly like it's not just like a potato or like rice. Yeah, it's like the naturally occurring conversation like fruits, vegetables, meats, like all of those things happen the way that you prepare them doesn't And on that note Thank you for listening to this episode of in Omnia paratus grab your coffee bowls and don't forget to rate download and follow on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you'd like to hear about in the comments. Bye

Jae 54:15

appreciate don't appropriate

Transcribed by https://otter.ai