Episode 16 & 17: Dry Roses & Watery Peaches

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jae 0:00

Welcome back to In Omnia Paratus. I'm Jae like the letter

Angela 0:03

and I'm Angela also known as avo

Jae 0:06

we're two friends diving into our own past and present evaluating if we were ever truly ready for anything we discuss all things from the definition of dating to all the things school didn't prepare us for listen as we talk about career changes, give plenty of unsolicited opinions and work on becoming the people we want to see in the world.

Angela 0:22

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of In Omnia paratus. Jae, how you doing,

Jae 0:27

Didn't I just say that?

Angela 0:29

know I panicked. I was it was it ready? Good afternoon. Good morning. I'm Jae's echo. Apparently today I prefer parents but it's fine. If I'm a parent, does that make you the pirate?

Jae 0:42

Oh, I'll be a pirate. There's our Halloween costume.

Angela 0:45

Oh, my God. You know, I I'd make a perfect pair it with my fear of birds and all? Yes, don't get that one.

Jae 0:51

But before we start today's episode, you're much better at these than I am want to give the disclaimer dearest to listeners

Angela 0:57

. Today, we will be talking about some hot button topics. Some of you may know the show genuine Georgia from Netflix, you may have seen it. You may have only heard about it. But Jay and I recently watched it. And we felt that there were a lot of issues explored within the show that we would like to talk about here on the podcast, we know that there has been quite a bit of controversy surrounding the portrayal of the black experience. And we want to be very sensitive to that, as neither of us are black. We cannot speak to exactly how well that was handled within the show. But as to multiracial individuals in the world today, we felt that there were some things that we could really relate to as they have happened in our personal experience. So today we are Oh yeah. So today, we're going to be exploring a little bit of that we hope that you want to listen with us and hear a little bit about what we think what we've experienced. And going along with that same thread as well, we thought that we would touch in on our thoughts relating to the controversy currently surrounding the bachelor as well with Chris Harrison and Rachel Kirkconnell. And I mean, well, frankly, frankly, a lot of areas of the bachelor that are currently surrounded in controversy. So and have been for quite some time. Yes. and have been for quite some time we we stand with Rachel Lindsay. Exactly. So if you want to skip today's episode, we completely understand. But we hope that you do listen with us today. Thank you,

Jae 2:30

I'm just gonna say if you feel the need to skip, you might have some learning and unlearning to do

Angela 2:34

possibly, possibly you have also done a lot of learning and unlearning, and you're wiped for this week, we also get that because I think that goes to the whole thing of like your wellness feeds the wellness of the movement. If you're constantly consuming content that is talking to you about various issues and struggles, it really does start to weigh on you. So there's nothing wrong with saying like, I have done X amount today. I'm going to start again tomorrow. I'm sensing a no there.

Jae 3:05

Let's get into it. It's not an it's not a no, it's a I feel that message of wellness. and protecting oneself is for a specific group. It's not for everyone. It's not a general message we should all take in like in general, your wellness is important. But my point is for people where this is a choice, whether they dip their toe in and have these conversations and think about whether this is an issue they'd like to cover your your security and safety of having to deal with this, versus the wellness of people who are marginalized and suffering are not equal. And so I agree that people who are living existing trying to find their way wellness breaks all of that. But if it's someone where this is a choice of whether you'd like to educate learn, get yourself involved with your well not your wellness doesn't come first because it still does mental health make put your mask on before someone else's but your wellness and making yourself a little uncomfortable. Are you uncomfortable or Are you overwhelmed and getting re traumatized? Those are not the same thing.

Angela 4:13

Okay, I like that distinction.

Jae 4:14

Yes, I'm not trying to sound I mean, I guess we'll start here since this is kind of the point. One of the big things that recently has come to my attention the CH drama from the bachelor franchise is how much dealing with what is not a political issue, but is a human issue of racism, particularly in this country is a choice for a segment of Americans how much it's a choice to get involved a choice to educate yourself with choice to not be in an echo chamber. It is the choice to deal with these issues. And I've grown up as a minority in this country. However, I've grown up in an area where I've never been the minority in a space I'm in all my schools have been dominantly Asian, my university was dominantly Asian even though it was much more diverse than my other schools. Our university was still 46% Asian, which was the largest majority on campus, I've always been in the quote in group in where I've been. And I still deal with these things. Like it's not a choice for me. Even with all of that privilege of being around so many people who look like me and have similar backgrounds and stories,

Angela 5:18

I think it really goes to show just how deeply the white perspective is built into, oh, you're going there?

Our sale? Yeah, just it goes to show like how deeply it's built into the perspective of our society. Everything really is made to cater to a certain group, and then let in others as they wish,

Jae 5:41

and not in a Princess Bride kind of way as you wish as like a gatekeeping. wisely, how's it gonna remember his name?

Angela 5:51

And I actually just watched that the

Jae 5:53

other day, it was on our rom com puzzles.

Angela 5:55

I have not seen the full interview between ch and Rachel Lindsay. I've only seen the highlights read the articles afterwards. I'm like I've said before, I'm new to bachelor nation, I've only watched the franchise for about a year now. And I would really like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was just trying to like toe some sort of line, ask a question that a lot of people were thinking about, just like be that one voice for a majority. Even if that was true. There are so many other better ways to go about it. So Jay, you watch. You watch the talk sometimes, right? No, I've seen clips But no, I didn't watch. I haven't. Okay, so I think it's the talk with Carrie Ann Inaba. Yes. Yeah. So she actually asked a question a couple weeks ago, sorry, guys, were just really go in there. she posed a question to another panelists. Is it okay to say the N word in any context?

Jae 6:53

Why do you want to?

Angela 6:55

So she was saying that a lot of derogatory terms had been used towards Asians and then had been repurposed within the Asian community. And she thought that because they said them, other people felt okay to say them. So her question to the panel was because the N word is used in hip hop music. Is that why you think some people think it's okay to say, and they told her? Absolutely not. It's not okay. in any context. They had the full conversation, but carry on, put that out there. And before she asked that question, she said, I'm not sure about this. I don't really know from my perspective, I would like to hear from yours. And I think other people would as well, because I think that they have that same confusion. And they had a really difficult conversation, Carrie, and actually ended up crying. And I think someone else ended up crying as well. But nobody took any offense to it. It was just about how they were trying to be open. And I think if that's what ch was trying to do, he really failed at that

Jae 7:54

you you need to watch I think before you do the show notes, and maybe frankly, address them on the Instagram. You need to watch the full interview of ch and Rachel Lindsay because I've done a lot i'm not i'm not you could be giving him a benefit of the doubt but like that's not how the full interview goes. So this was a part of the interview after I think whatever they talked about the recap of the episode, right? What Rachel Lindsay starts on asking basically is like we've heard these allegations is Rachel going to say anything? Should she say anything whose onus isn't on The Bachelor her individually? All those kinds of questions. Both will know as soon as she says that, within like three seconds the term woke police comes up and then kind of the big kicker, which I'm sure you've seen, I'm sure anyone who's in bachelor nation or associates with the franchisor watches the franchisor heard I think when you hear him say Who the hell are you? And then you see him very quickly backtracked. Well. Who am I? Who is anyone to comment on something of this swords? I listened to Rachel Lindsay's podcast with them. Late them i think is his last name called higher learning to hear her perspective. She's obviously off Instagram, she got bullied off Instagram, her podcasts have gotten tanked because of her thoughts on Rachel Kirkconnell apology or kirkin. All I've heard it both ways Rachel Lindsay very gracefully both sides saying I want to forgive them both. I want to also see what they do next. And just with those words alone, she's been getting Massive Online criticism and hate but going back to what ch said to her going back to the point of like when I brought up the podcast is you hear her say on her podcast that she asked a question that bunch of interviewers have been asking and clearly today he had no publicists he had nothing but extra also did not edit the interview at all. It was very clear that ch woke up that day and was like I'm just gonna fully be myself. And the amount of restraint and body language you see Rachel Lindsay holding in as she's asking these questions, you're right he might have been trying to speak for quote, a majority of people are who they think is the majority of the demographics. You could tell how impassioned he was in the warranty chose to use the phrases he chose to use. This is what He meant Maya Angelou, when people show you who they are, believe them. I think we very clearly saw who he was in that interview. I don't think someone who really wants to have the conversation, uses the words woke police. Who the hell are you to have an issue with this? It was 2018. There was no interview, there was no conversation.

Angela 10:20

No, I think that you're absolutely right. I think that if ch was trying to speak for the people, that didn't translate if he really, he came in there, and he used a lot of language that pretty much under that just completely undermines any work that he thought he was trying to do. And the whole point of this interview was literally to address racism. Well, no, the

Jae 10:45

whole point of the interview was to just recap and she fed him like a few crumbs. And like he took the bite. Wait, this was just a recap interview. This was just her weekly segment where she goes over the episode and that it was Week Six, Rachel Lindsay felt to bring up that it's been six weeks. We haven't heard a statement. What are your thoughts? Is there going to be a statement? Where does the onus hold? That's the point. This was just a typical interview. The reason? Okay, so was it because he jumped? He took it, he took it there.

Angela 11:13

Oh, okay. So what I've seen so far of the clips, it's always been positioned to me as bachelor franchise addresses racism in failed interview. It wasn't supposed to, though. That's the point. It was just a small question in a greater interview that either happened before or were supposed to happen after this question was dropped, placed. Okay. Yeah, that that changes things a lot.

Jae 11:37

This is just her regular Tuesday interview after a Monday episode of The Bachelor, and ch was the guest, and she was questioning him. See, I thought so what I had read was that he had been pulled out to speak with Rachel Lindsay specifically to address everything that was going on. I didn't know that this was just a recap. This is a recap. And I'm sure that question was supposed to come up during the recap. But it could have came up in a much Yes, we do. Plan she is planning on making a statement she is Why hasn't she spoken out yet? Well, because x, y and z, he felt the need to go on a 17 and a half minute tirade about it.

Angela 12:11

See, I don't understand that just from the perspective of being the face of the bachelor they couldn't I don't know. I feel like maybe this speaks to a little bit about how much I don't know about the bachelor franchise, but they couldn't find someone with a more like clear devotion to diversity and openness to host

Jae 12:30

Yeah, well remember, as ch has an interview with Confederate flags and plantation parties that had already been banned from fraternities and sororities, but still happened on these campuses that bad in 2018? Or is it just bad now through the 2020 2021? lens?

Angela 12:46

100% bad at every single moment? See, that's what I don't understand about how some of these conversations come up, and particularly when the apology start to come? Or it's like, I didn't know what I didn't know until I knew it. I absolutely hate that. I don't like that. I don't like that phrase, though. Because Because a lot of people, at least in my experience, a lot of people who have used it and directed it towards me. I have been telling you about all of the things that have been going on that I have experienced for a long time. And I'm sure that other people outside of outside of me who who have been attempting to educate their friends and their family, co workers, etc. about this, who have then heard them use that phrase, are also just as upset, because it's like, oh, I'm sorry, was I was I speaking another language? Could you not hear me was I astral projecting that day. And you couldn't hear me because I was on another plane. Like, well, it just didn't matter as much until this year. I'm saying these things very sarcastically as a way for me to not scream.

Jae 13:57

I think that as we continue this conversation, a lot of good comes out of it. A lot of bad comes out of it. But the first thing we need to stop doing, which I said before, and I'll say again, how good of a person you are and your morals, racism, and the isms are not a factor of that. And if that's the only way you're looking through their good or bad moral compass, you were not going to get any. So I make jokes about learning and unlearning. And these phrases that have been popular, a lot popularized and Performa devised because it's what they are.

Angela 14:26

Yeah. So here and now let's just all agree to stop with the performative activism and actually commit to some real comprehension and absorption of what's going on.

Jae 14:39

And I think there's also a balance between people of color or not just bipoc bipoc individuals and non bipoc individuals and finding that balance between educating yourself and learning yourself and trying to do the work and not relying on bipoc people to do the work for you, but also making sure your opinions and voice and thoughts do not become less than what's being said in those communities. It's a balance and it might seem performative and first things might be perceived a certain way. But coconspirator ship ally ship is a lifelong process and a lifelong practice. You don't kind of get to wear the badge and be like I opened the door for someone today, check you are not done,

Angela 15:17

you did the right decent thing to do. You did not do anything above and beyond what you needed to.

Jae 15:24

So to dip into the contestants of the lovely bachelor franchise a bit one of something that I heard from one of the contestants and there's a bunch of drama going on with different contestants right now such as Taylor Nolan, who was has been a big advocate but then the old tweet service, we're really not going to get into it. A bunch of people have spoken out a bunch of people in know her who know the franchise have spoken about it, go to Instagram. That's not what we're here to talk about today. But something that she had said earlier about on our podcast is once she came off the bachelor, she was added to a Facebook group called like, just I think it was something called just colored enough or just something enough

Angela 16:00

what so it's all of the people who had like to get on the show. Was this made by past contestants

Jae 16:06

correct by past people of color who had been on the show, once they came off the show, they would join this group and I'm assuming had a lot to say, oh my god.

Angela 16:13

Okay, so just to put a little bit of my art in perspective, I really didn't know anything about the bachelor until this year, frankly, when everyone started talking about how Claire's season featured the most diversity of any contestants and then bringing taisha in and learning that Rachel Lindsay was the first black Bachelorette first black lead first black lead. Yes, I thought that that meant she was just the first black lead. I thought that there had been a Hispanic Latin x Bachelorette or an Asian Bachelorette or bachelor. I didn't. I didn't know that. So I now understand a little bit more going through this process and why this is seemingly so perplexing to people from the outside because I actually I hadn't questioned it from the beginning. I was just like, Oh, this is just they're just alternating this year. They have diversity. No, apparently they have no diversity. And that's mind blowing. How could a show go on for 25 years? 25 years, right? Plenty of seasons, agents start before 2000 Oh, how could a show go on for almost 20 years and not feature real diversity?

Jae 17:17

Um friends How I Met Your Mother. I mean, I frankly want to throw Boy Meets World and they're all they all all things I've never really watched until the past few years. Okay, Gilmore Girls, if we want to be fair,

Angela 17:30

I know I have thought about that.

Jae 17:31

As we I think this is a good time to transition Ginny , Georgia, something completely off topic. I saw an insert post like as you get older, do you and more and more feel kinship with Emily Gilmore and feel like Lorelei and Rory are just like immature and rewatching it this time, I was kind of like, Huh, I still think Emily's a bit overbearing, but I also have started to see more flaws in Lorelei and Rory going through at this time, and I don't know if I appreciate that.

Angela 17:58

I know, right? It's like, do we all just age into Emily Gilmore? Like, I think the biggest one for me was in like not taking the revival into account. Someone wrote up this confessional and was like, so the worst thing that happened to Rory Gilmore is that someone told her that she did. They didn't think she was talented. And she then proceeded to drop out of school and wasted six months of her life moping and I was like, Huh, that's actually kind of true. Yeah, not not not a great goal.

Jae 18:25

Yeah, and Lorelei buying her house, right?

Angela 18:28

I actually never even thought about that Laura Gilmore bought their home using her trust fund money.

Jae 18:35

Yeah, I've not satisfied for I still love the show dearly and for what it did for me during my formative years and for the things I still love about it, but definitely watching the show as I'm mature is like a different experience. I still stand Jess mlo girl through and through, but Ginny and Georgia Netflix's new teen series that originally got a lot of buzz for being compared to Gilmore Girls they even throw a line in there in the first episode of were like the Gilmore Girls but with bigger boobs. It is about a surprising teen mom daughter and in this situation she has another child from a different relationship who moved to a small town in New England. So just from the premise before that line, and the show came out every news outlet quote news outlet and entertainment outlet and everyone was like is this the new Gilmore Girls Netflix is doing another Gilmore Girls. What's happening with Gilmore Girls is the show going to be the new Gilmore Girls so we watched the trailer. I was frankly just offended by all of the Gilmore girl comparisons when I didn't know about the show. I didn't want it to oh and the G's that was another reason why I think this is Gilmore Girls. From the trailer you can tell him to definitely don't go more often after watching the show. It's definitely not Gilmore Girls and I feel like people clung to what they could connect it to to what they could market it as or what they think people would click on when people click on new Gilmore Girls, not doing Ginny & Georgia x or what is GInny and ga those all came after the show came out. But before everyone decided tolling get to go morons based on the fact that it was a teen mom, small town New England that they described as looking like Paul Revere boned a pumpkin spice latte.

Angela 20:15

So I actually didn't watch the trailer before I started watching the series and I just heard about the Gilmore Girls references to absolutely nothing like Gilmore Girls in the way that plot develops. Definitely more I think, Jae, you said Desperate Housewives. I think it calls in a little bit of little fires everywhere. Yeah, I mean, here let's go surface level for a second.

Jae 20:37

This show went from summer to January. I think there were no seasonal shifts. That was like a focal point of gilmoregirls was the changing of the seasons. Wait to January. I thought it was just like two or three months. Will you go from summer to school to there's Halloween Halloween?

Angela 20:56

They don't do Thanksgiving. Okay. Yes. Moving on for that. Yes. Huge hallmark of Gilmore Girls is the seasonal chips

Jae 21:03

fall would have still happened didn't go.

Angela 21:05

Yes. So we got fall surface Lee. We also have GInny and Georgia teen mom and daughter and teenage daughter or mom and teenage daughter who are very close in age because mom had her when she was a teenager. But the fun factor in real life. They're only seven years apart so crazy. The one thing I do like about the addition of her little brother Austin is that we get to see something of a relationship between them like a very close relationship that we never got with Rory and Gigi.

Jae 21:33

Oh, love Austin. I stand the little kids with good cheeks and glasses.

Angela 21:39

I know and he was so into Harry Potter, so cute next, then there is Jenny's father, Xi'an who is out of the picture crazy in love with her mother Georgia rides a motorcycle drifts in and out of their lives on a motorcycle and turns on a motorcycle. You could put those two frickin scenes side by side of when the dads come to make their entrance. Xi'an is Christopher Hayden, hop off. Take your top off. Zion can sing though, and apparently Christopher Hayden is an instruction supporter. Oh, hang on. Okay. Yeah, then we get some very small comparison. Oh, well, no, actually, I'm so sorry. We have another huge comparison. Joe who runs the diner, or I'm sorry, cafe sab From Degrassi. As some of you may know him. He is the show's answer to Luke only his diner is a cafe that's organic and would probably be beloved by Emily Gilmore. If she had to pass through this town and has a farm and a horse named milkshake with horses. You know show Shawn Canada when you recognize people from Degrassi and then we have another Degrassi alum, Sara Weis class. Sure. I think I think that's how you'd say her name. But yes, she plays max on the show, Frankie and Degrassi very similar characters. So I basically just called her Frankie throughout the entire show, and she's sort of like the show's answer to Elaine like character. They definitely have some similarities, but she's also very different than there's Ginny's love interest hunter who is very Dean like and her other love interest Marcus, Marcus, Marcus Marcus, who was pretty just like, just the early years,

Jae 23:18

I wish they had given just the emotional depth they had given Marcus right, they probably were saving that for his spin off and then they just never went there, but we get it and jack Pearson Peterson Pearson Yeah. Yeah. Jess in an alternate timeline, and then we get Oh, no, I'm blanking. I'm gonna get there. We're gonna get there. Roland and Jocelyn Jocelyn shit is also on the show.

Angela 23:39

Yeah, she plays Frankie Max's mom named Ellen. There you go. Yes. So character wise. There are a ton of similarities between this cast and the Gilmore Girls archetype was however, we have a huge shift in terms of the storyline so murder yet Georgia was a teenage runaway who left an abusive family home fell in with a biker gang blood eyes met Zai on on his gap year between high school and college got pregnant lived with him and his family for a while. They attempted to take conservative Ship of Her child. Then she ran away so that she wouldn't lose Jenny got long. Let's not spoil the series. Yes, for once. Oh, you know, this is gonna be so hard for me. Okay. So yeah, fast forward to 15 years later. They now live in a small New England town, which they've just moved to from Texas, after George's husband Jenny stepfather has just died of a heart attack.

Jae 24:43

Yes, he owns a yoga franchise that is pretty successful. Yoga. Boga? Yes. And Georgia named to all of her children after the cities in which they were born. So Ginny is short for Virginia, Austin, Texas. And Fun fact on the Netflix after party. We We learn that the most common name after a location is Madison. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, no, no, that's a lot. It's Jackson fuck Jackson's that was coffee. Popular. The options aren't Madison, Charlotte and Jackson and Jackson was the right answer. And I knew it too.

Angela 25:13

I love how the after they already started, and I wasn't familiar with the actress who came in but she's like, and my name is London already. So you don't even have to like write me into write me into a new character. Yes, I thought you were meaning like how the after party started like as a series and I got confused. I'm back. But yes, so this is the basic premise of Ginny and Georgia and new people small town. Lots of secrets. Secrets is something we really don't have and Gilmore more history than you would expect. That was the mother daughter secrets we get later in the series. Oh, another familiar face. Nice guy from heart of Dixie. I don't remember his character's name. But I think he also might be in Virgin River.

Jae 25:54

Probably everyone's in Virgin River, even though Virgin River from what I've seen is literally heart of Dixie. Like literally the same line, small town. Big, big city doctor goes to small town doctor and the dad is the same person like the old grumpy private practice says the same person from heart of Dixie. Oh, wow. And now they're just joined by Riggs. Yeah. Okay, so those were that's like our synopsis of like, what happened. And then the big thing which we wanted to speak on in the show, so the big differences or the murder, the mystery, and then also the active choice of including the intersectional struggle of bipoc individuales surrounded by dominantly white and I don't know if you would say this suburban communities, whether white and suburban or just white play a factor in this your your suburbia and the nighted. So I don't know if you would make a distinction of just white or white suburban. I think that for the sake of where we are right now we're gonna go with just a predominantly white community, because I think depending upon the area that you live in suburban means something very different. Okay,

Angela 26:59

so we're okay, we're just jumping right into this in the way that the show has shaped itself. I think that for the way that they placed it, they were focusing on a very specific perspective of those who are multiracial or living as a part of a blended family that is set mainly within predominantly white communities. And I think of that in film and television. That's actually not something that we see very often. So I know, for Jay and myself, it was strange, but also very refreshing, because there was something about a familiarity to a lot of the a lot of the things that happened throughout the show that we can see very much within our daily lives. So I know for example, one of the things that a lot of critics have brought up about the show is that they don't like the way that the topic of the bipoc struggle is handled in relation to Jenny as she moves throughout the town because they focus mainly on micro aggressions and low hanging fruit micro aggressions at that. Yes, but frankly, it's a J. I don't know if this is your same experience. But in mine, that's been a lot of what people go for in my life. Yeah, I would definitely say that question for you. You do you do you prefer the word Latin? or Hispanic? I don't know. I usually I usually go for Hispanic just because I've been told that Latin refers to central to South America. But then Hispanic also wasn't right either. So everyone, we're very sorry for using the wrong term.

Okay. Well, we're going with it and we will fact check more.

Jae 28:38

You're part European. And part part son troll American. Yeah,

yes. Okay.

Angela 28:46

No, here. We can write this down everyone. My mom her family is from Spain, both of her parents. Well, her mom is from Spain. Her my grandfather on my mom's side is of a slightly more mixed origin. I think there's some Native American thrown in there. And then on my dad's side, his father's Swedish and his mother is half Mexican, half French to me. Both of my parents look very white. They're both what we would call white passing. I definitely look a little bit more you don't pass this way. I don't I don't pass as white. A lot of people think that I'm Middle Eastern, or I get a wish or Jewish I get a lot of people ask me if I'm from Brazil. So yeah, yeah, that's,

that's what I have.

Jae 29:32

Okay, well, here my point wasn't even like what people assumed my question was going to be When was the first time or what's the closest experience you have in TV reality, not reality, in like in media that you saw yourself, whether that's someone who's multiracial, whether that's someone who grew up with two parents who present white who and you don't present my what was the first example you've ever had of that kind of experience, like the clothes are not the first the closest you've had to seeing your experience running?

Angela 30:00

Did I actually, I actually don't know if I've ever seen something that I could directly relate to. There are experiences in genuine Georgia that I've had, but I've never really seen them expressed through the context of someone who looks like me or looks like me within my family. So Joe looking for that to this day. I've read about it more in books, but I've never actually seen it.

Jae 30:25

Well, the reason I brought this up this show had a character. Unfortunately, she wasn't a main character who has my experience. She is a girl adopted from an Asian country in a Jewish family. And I think if people were to guess whether your my experience would be shown First, it probably would have been yours.

See? I don't know. I don't think so. Because I think that there's frankly, in a lot of the research that I've done in prepping for various podcast episodes, I think that there are some very deeply ingrained stereotypes about what it is to be Hispanic Latinx in America, and a lot of those, I think a lot of those really aren't questioned in terms of just the vastness of what that experience really is a topic for another day. No, but so this was Nora right? This was an order Yes, I yeah, that Nora has that experience. And it was really it was very odd and confusing and kind of I my friends joke that I'm like a unicorn finding an Asian juicy unicorn. So it's always like one of it's like my one like fun fact party trick I pull out. my elbow can't look my nose. Apparently, it's humanly impossible to tap the bigger palm to your shoulder. I learned that on tik tok. But, of course, but I never thought I would see it somewhere to experience that we talked about a rom com episode with crazy rich Asians. It's so weird seeing a character so closely you identify with in media and I think it not like let me finish the fold. Like it gave me a perspective of what what it would be like to be white in the sense that like you could put yourself and your experience and your feelings and what you go through directly on to what's being reflected to you. And like I just never thought that would happen. Like my first experience with anyone who kind of I felt related to i think that i from memory was Vanessa Hudgens in High School Musical. I don't know whether I knew she was Filipino at the time, but she was the first actress was like, I feel like I kind of see myself and I saw myself physically in that. Oh, and yes, Filipino like AAPI, like if you want to get particular on it, but she was the first actress who I felt like I kind of saw myself in ever, which is why I was questioned whether that's the reasons I got from one of my first crushes, yep, to Zac Efron as well.

Angela 32:37

Oh, that's very interesting. But nor is a whole different level. And it was definitely an experience of like someone else. It's like someone else has my story, which I think we all know in the real life, but when it's portrayed in media and media is kind of like this, not like clouded but this other world we kind of think of like this show is going out to millions of people, millions of people are now seeing someone who has my story, even though it's a small part of the larger show, and the lead is Asian, we'll get more into that later. But putting an Asian male in that in that position of being the desired one being the hot one being the one who girls want is only starting to become a thing. I think Netflix's new show, Moxie also has it, which frankly, to me kind of bothers me because it feels a little performative on Netflix size, but we're not going to get into that too much right now.

I don't know. I'm definitely liking this upward tick in the trend of Asian male leads and

Jae 33:30

solitons I have a chapter on Spotify ratings recently.

Angela 33:33

Um, I know he's not he's not giving us feedback. So we're gonna assume he stopped listening once they all probably saw kinda but the thing is for me, like I'm gonna make a I don't want to get the wall say any man of any ethnicity can be attractive or unattractive. Or like I'm just saying that's like we need I think that we need to stop getting into this idea of like, oh, if you're a Hispanic male, like the highest level of attractiveness that you can reach as a nine because like if you're a Hispanic 10 you're a white eight Yeah, okay, I get I find people of all colors real attractive, and sama y'all men are real ugly. Sorry. Damn, just coming for 50% of our listenership today 53 actually for going with Spotify Oh, okay.

Jae 34:15

They could be attractive men we don't know who listens to this. But I think there have been stereotypes about the way certain men or certain women in certain groups behave are seen as society attractive or unattractive and seeing the male well one of the male leads hunter being half Taiwanese half American he's actually I'm pretty sure half Canadian was definitely changed but I like seeing in media I personally didn't think he was very attractive. But there are a lot of there are a lot of male leads and other show who I don't think are very attractive either looking back on like the show objectively, but when your show position someone as the desirable hot one while you're watching the show and you're invested in that storyline, you kind of agree with it and you're okay, I don't really see it but like I get it and doing that with the person of color for such a broad audience as Netflix international one, I think can do huge things for the way Asian men get roles in the future and Asian men are perceived throughout society.

Angela 35:09

Now, I do have to say as far as all of the men go in this show, none of them were particularly in my taste, but they're also not in my age range. So I think I'm okay with that. We love someone who's accepting of their aging process. Okay, neither was I agreed. Frankly, I think staff has aged really well. And then he has I felt different once I found out Marcus was Australian. I know I love that scene where they definitely just wanted to throw in his true accent. When did they cuz when they're in the locker room when Jenny's fixing her hair, and he walks away, and she's like, Well, actually, I think yes. Also more like I don't remember him speaking Australian there, but I remember that scene. Oh, that's so funny, huh? Yeah, I think he responds. And he like throws out all of like, the cliche Australian thing. Like people say back out her. Yeah, she focused on the part where they almost had sex in the shower for that one. Oh, that's right. So not Gilmore Girls, just to affirm one more time for the people in the back very much not Gilmore Girls. I think if we're if we're going to go down that route.

Should we talk about should we talk about Frankie Max?

Jae 36:29

Yes. I don't know where that relation is coming from. But sure.

Angela 36:32

Well, in Gilmore Girls, we didn't have a same sex relationship or a couple until the revival but in Jenny in Georgia, we get max who she and her family they're all very upfront her family's incredibly supportive of her her friends are very supportive of her. I think that in terms of navigating coming into i don't i don't know the right term for this coming into your sexuality coming. It's not coming out because she doesn't come out on the show. She's that's something that's been established before. But I felt that the way that they live in navigate, blossoming. I like that we'll go with living her sexuality. I liked the way that they portrayed it because it was something that I hadn't really seen in television. I've seen a lot of coming out stories, but none but nothing really about what came after that. I also feel like there's a lot more stories of gay men and lesbians. But I don't know if that's just the media I consume.

Oh, no, I agree.

Jae 37:32

The only slight thing as neither of us are in the LGBTQ community. Feel free to comment, critique, give us feedback on that. Additionally, I do not believe that Sarah Weissman is a part of that community. Angela can fact check that, but I haven't seen anything. So it again, I think she's great. But I also think you could have cast someone who's lived it. But Angela will confirm this for the show. Nope, definitely. I love her personality I love I love the character. I think she's very, she's a great example of someone who is a well intentioned Caucasian person, especially coming from someone with a father on the show who is deaf. I think she's very well intentioned in things. But I know there was a scene when she was introducing Janine that you had a bit to say on.

Angela 38:22

So I really like max. And I also don't like some of the things that she's done. So she kind of comes out at like a draw for me. But in her real introductory scene with Jenny, she actually tosses out a bunch of microaggressions, which she then kind of tries to explain away with the phrase like, oh, sorry, sorry, if I'm being a dick, like, I'm just a white person living in an all white community. So I don't really know how to say this correctly. So she she's asked Jenny, if she can touch her hair, if she can touch your skin, like, oh, gosh, like, Can I not do that? Is that like, Is that like a white girl asking a black girl the wrong thing. And it's just like, granted, I get I get that these are young teenagers. And, frankly, as a teenager, young adult, myself, a lot of the conversations that I had with people where I was trying to figure out my identity and how to express myself. And they were doing the same. They weren't handled in the best, most nuanced and educated manner. But I think that the show could have taken an opportunity to give a different perspective there. And maybe, you know, she had said those things, and then she could have caught herself and been like, Oh, wait, I'm sorry, can Is that okay? Like, can we talk about this? Like I should maybe I shouldn't have said that. I think the show is a better scene in terms of kind of the curly hair microaggression, which we'll get to in just a second.

Jae 39:40

Because even going back to that first scene in class with Ginny and Frankie Max and that class, the AP English class and the teacher mock class, I think the teacher the white male AP English teacher assumes Jenny is not gonna be able to keep up with the class and she she dropped out, it's gonna be hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, obviously She's exceptionally well read very smart kind of schools, the teacher as soon as she reads the bulk list, knowing that most of these are white male authors, probably the one black author is going to be used during MLK month Black History Month. And the first comment that max makes is kind of a Yeah, what she said, echoing the feminist part of that, but then she and a lot of the other classmates kind of use it as an excuse to like not do the work. I think a comparison I don't know at all you could tell me if I'm off or if I'm on the right track here is kind of like in the hate you give when all the kids go to protest of kind of like, yeah, this is bad. But like, in my personal experience, that just means I don't have to go to class that day, or I'm showing performative activism. But then I also don't have to read this book or do this assignment or continue my school day because we're all impacted by this racist rhetoric actions thing book. No, I think that's a good comparison.

Angela 40:53

And actually, I hadn't even thought of that. And it made me think of when we were actually in high school. Do you remember the occupy movement? The Wall Street one? Yes, yes. So did your high school do anything in relation to that, as I know, at mine, they I don't know, like a sophomore or a junior or something. And I think the seniors decided to petition if they could have an occupy protest, which meant that they didn't go to class and they would sit in the courtyard. I don't know if anything really ever came from it. But they tried to get the whole school involved. And it was one of those things that kind of felt like that as well. Like it started with very good intentions, but a lot of people were enthusiastic about it, because it meant like, Oh, God, I don't have to go to algebra today. Got it.

Jae 41:38

Um, my school. I don't know how specific This is. So I'm one of those very, very, very strict religious organization churches, things came to my school. I know the organization has been but I don't know how many schools they picketed in the Bay Area. My school had a pro LGBT group so they decided one day to come pick it up my school and I know students were gathering in the courtyard like oh my god, like having sides like Jesus was a Jew. Jesus had two dads like very very liberal than against them. So we all sit in the front of the school and our school had a bunch of stairs going up so they were on the other side of the street. Well, all the students were down and it was safe and like the teachers were there they knew what's going on but like i don't i think at the time it could have been seen it that I was looking back I'm sure some people were definitely doing a performative Lee I did it to kind of feel it was my way of feeling like I was showing support for those people like the groups of like, like these were the kinds of people who have petitioned soldiers funerals kind of bad like I definitely wasn't okay with the group so I was doing it as like a protest thing united with people I can't say how everyone's motives were but that's what mine were. And it was nice everyone was dancing playing music very community. That's good.

My apologies for the rough transition. Hopefully you're getting the second episode today makes up for that. You heard me correct. This episode actually got split into we just had too much to say. No one should be surprised. We always have a lot to say. We hope you enjoy Part Two and see you on the other side

in Episode 17.

Ep. 17 Begins here

Jae 0:00

Wecome everyone to this two part lovely episode and there is a part one. So I would head over to Episode 16. If you hadn't gone to hear it yet, or go backwards if

you want to be spoiled

a lot, we appreciate your time to listen to us speak on some pretty tough things. And we hope you'll join us in the conversation. Enjoy the episode. Going back to Can I touch your hair, we'll go into like, before we go into Virginia and Georgia. I know that I mean, I don't know if you can tell me if this was a microaggression or not. So the first few months of mine and Angela's friendships due to her like in test to know about due to her stomach issues. I like saw her and frequently I wouldn't say no at all just got the flaky, she's a little bit flaky, kind of like a big ambiguous like when I would see her when I wouldn't it got more regular my second year of college without first year was kind of like it kind of would go in and out. So like the first few times about Angela Leslie from the stories I don't remember her. But next few times I would see her sometime she would wear her glasses, and sometimes she wouldn't. And as we all know my glasses drastically changed the way someone's face can look. And then some of the other times Angela would straighten and curl her hair. And I don't think Angela was very much straightening her hair at the time. And I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, Whoa, you look like a different person. No, I don't think I did like a bad versus good way. It was just like a You don't look like you normally look kind of way this was in my dorm. So I know it was my freshman year

Angela 1:29

when when I when my hair is not in its naturally curly state. And I've either straightened it or straightened and added a bit of like a wave or a curl. My face shape looks drastically different.

Jae 1:41

So they already didn't really know this girl. And then like she kept changing her luck every few times, like didn't really recognize her most for a while. But at some point, I don't know if it was like my second year or my third year, the conversation of hair came up not because I mean, I think I did ask to hurt your hair at one point. But that was after she told me it was badass to touch people's hair. But then because she put the idea in my head. It made me curious about it. What justification it's just like thinking thinking when don't think of the pink zebra and like you think of the pink zebra because that's what's now in your mind. But it was a conversation about like, I don't know what there was like going to the going into Oh, there was like a danger or a pool party or it was raining or was he would It's nothing to do with the way your hair would be impacted in the environment. And I was like what, like I didn't understand which is when we've I think first started the hair conversation. I don't know. This is why this looks as though I don't remember better.

Angela 2:26

So I don't I don't exactly remember this first conversation. I do remember when you I do remember the first time that you actually like asked to touch my hair. And I think it was your second year because I remember like your bed was in the alcove. Yes. But yeah, no, I mean, honestly, it probably did have something to do with a danger because anytime like my hair's near water, up fog, any sort of moisture after I've spent an extensive amount of time heat styling it we protect it, nothing else. Nothing else matters. But the hair in this situation. So yeah, I mean, I wouldn't up here I did not take your asking to touch my hair as a microaggression. Frankly, at this point, we'd known each other a while we've had a lot of very open and honest conversations about life. And I knew who you were and I knew Wow, I feel very, I feel very bachelor right now because I'm using

Jae 3:22

my heart like

Angela 3:23

I know your heart. Yeah. So I didn't I didn't take it in any way as a bad way. I took it as more of a curiosity because after that time, you weren't like actively like reaching out and touching my hair acting like you knew what my hair but yeah, no, I and I think that's the really hard part about microaggressions. Because in some ways, they do stem a lot from curiosity. And some people just have not grown up in a place where that Curiosity has necessarily been harmful when they've put questions or statements out there to other people in their lives. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think I think it makes sense. I think also not, I did not have any friends who had textured hair before.

And I think that we've talked about that, too. So I knew that this wasn't some sort of, like, weird fetish that you harbored. You

Jae 4:16

know, it was just a thing of like, I remember. I think it frankly, stemmed from you styling your hair. And when Angela styles her hair and it's long, it can literally look like she has a Victoria's Secret ball for a week straight and she doesn't wash it doesn't touch it barely brushes that maybe a little oil to it and it looks the same and it lasts longer than my hair ever could. And it kind of stem from like, why like, how does it do it? And then it's like, we'll take the reverse of what my hair can't do because of this. And then that's how we started talking about kind of the hair discussion. And I learned a lot more like another conversation over Angela telling me about how she had a 24 hour hair routine. And I'm like I couldn't

Angela 4:54

Oh yeah. When I first explained what washing day was to you.

Jae 4:58

Well, I have a washing day but like I had like specific washing days, but my washing days were not nearly as extensive as what your washing day was.

Angela 5:07

Oh yeah, washing day for me is literally an entire day. We start in the morning and we ended the evening Nigel

Jae 5:13

won't make plans on these days. But I think the way that Jeanine Georgia handled that version of the hair conversation or the hair incident much better this time, I really appreciated it. Well, I don't know if I mean, you can tell me I thought it was a very good display. The only thing that bothered me about it was up until this point, Ginny had great curls. I think her curls were good. partway through the season, she just straighten her hair. And there are some comments made about that from the white counterparts. But when it was curly, it was really well styled curly. I don't know if everyone would agree with me, and maybe someone would appreciate and correctly, I thought she did her edges really well, from what I've seen edges are supposed to look like and how they should be treated those baby hairs in the front. I thought that was really good. So the fact that in this scene, all of her friends were getting silly like ariana grande de ponytails, she obviously you shouldn't be brushing her hair, the fact that she let someone brush her hair and like expect something was the only part of me that didn't believe it, because her curls are so phenomenal through the show. And it looks like the actress really knows how to keep her curls? Well.

Angela 6:18

No, I think in that situation, what they were trying to demonstrate was actually like a form of peer pressure, where like her friends were having something done like something that was so easy for them. And she didn't want to feel left out. So it's something that if you if you have not usually straight hair, sometimes you do find yourself in these situations where you're really just hoping for the best because you don't want to call any more attention to the fact that it's different or you don't want to be like the stick in the mud or something like that. The one thing I will have to say I actually went through and I rewatched this episode a couple days ago, Nora had her hair like blown out a little bit and she had some wave to it. They didn't brush the wave out of her hair, they kept it choppy and a little PC, especially at the top. It wasn't completely slicked back. So I don't understand why they couldn't have gone into that with Ginny. That was the one thing that I felt a little weird about watching it. I felt like Nora probably would have had to have given some sort of direction or they would have asked her and so I don't know why the same couldn't have been done for Ginny. Like my instinct as my instinct. If I were a hairdresser would be to ask how would you like this done? Like, would you like me to pull it back? Do you want me to brush it, but that didn't happen? You can you can kind of see where it is definitely meant to be an intentional thing because you don't see the hairdressers face. But you see her hands and the brush kind of making those movements that show that show that she is a little uncomfortable or doesn't know what to do, definitely. And then you can see the tension and Ginny herself just like let this be over with already. So I feel like I understand what the scene was supposed to portray. But I don't know if it exactly translated as well as they hoped it would. Because I feel that there are some elements that within the thought process don't fully make sense to give it the right impact and message.

Jae 8:11

I agree. I get that and i i think the bigger thing for me and the I think for the the wide audience of this show. I don't think a lot of girls typically who have straight hair would have had a second thought about telling their friend with curly hair. We're all doing Ariana Grande new ponies go do it. We're all getting them done. Come on, don't you want to look like us? Don't word your word girl group. To me like that's what I hope people will take away is not necessarily like all of the platforms of why it happened. But the thing of like people who have naturally straight hair or people who have the type of hair of a hairstyle that the group is doing, not having that second thought that not everyone can do that I hope people could get like don't just assume because she's our friend and she's a girl like it'll all work out.

Angela 8:54

No, and I think that this is something even in just our regular everyday life that we'll have to become a bit more accustomed to. Which I I hadn't really given this a second thought but I have like a couple people in my life who are older than me who have young children. And they've been explaining to me like all of the controversy surrounding school wacky hair days now.

Jae 9:17

Oh my god, I know we're gonna probably have to cancel it. Go lucky hair day. I have this adorable picture of two cookie cutters in my hair and I kind of am doing like the Ariana Grande day like hi like, like kind of Britney slash Ariana like ponytail with like two cookie cutters and I have like a tie dye shirt and like a denim skirt. And if I was like agenzia right now, I would totally blow up on tik tok. Oh my god, but continue of why we're probably canceling this.

Angela 9:42

Well, no, I don't I don't necessarily think that like wacky hair day needs to be canceled. But a lot of the things that traditionally fell into wacky hair when we were younger, I didn't really think about it like, Oh, yeah, like parents would like brush out their kids hair or like add in a bunch of like, really Like tight like curls and coils and things like that that weren't necessarily that aren't necessarily like wacky or crazy. But yeah, so it's just it's the things like that. Oh no,

we don't have to think about

Jae 10:13

No, I always got like the fun spray colors or glitter.

Angela 10:16

Oh, I could never find a color that would show up in my hair

Jae 10:19

pink. I did neon pink and neon green, like super bright color. And I have glitter for whatever I can go to a festival again. Like in my adult life. I have purple and I have gold. Hopefully they don't expire before I go to a festival again. Oh, yeah, I would never I mean, I don't I think the family I was raised in would never consider that wacky here. I also had a lot of hair as a child and so no one would have had the patience to do that on me. But it was that was never something that like crossed my mind that people would do I know what kids would roll out of bed and like not touch their hair, but I never heard of like people styling the hair like curly and then like brushing it out. So it became crazy, huh

Angela 10:55

so many things to think about.

Jae 10:57

But one of the other things that I learned when being friends with Angela was like makeup colors that I like didn't realize wouldn't show up in a lot of my palettes like, my God, I don't think half of your eyes more than half of your eyeshadow did not show up on me. Well, when I went for the colors that I would use like for like a smoky eye. They worked fine. I just had to start in the bone. The third like the darker third of my palate, like I don't know, my my friends were mostly like not melanin. So I didn't think about the fact that like a brown eyeshadow had to be a certain shade to show up. I mean, I got better. And I like figured it out more like your senior year. But it was something that I never had to occur to me. I know.

Angela 11:40

I mean, honestly, it really didn't occur to me either. because growing up I had people in my life who could pick out the right shades for me and direct me to what I needed. So I got there eventually. No, no, I know. Like, I

here's the thing. I never took it as a bad thing. I think it's just it really comes in to how that situation is navigated. I think we were both very perplexed when it was like why like, why isn't this working? Why don't you look like you have makeup on but we got there

Jae 12:09

we did and I think I tried to do the mortally torn your friend doesn't fit into with thighs, clothes, which like body positivity and all like, it's still embarrassing if you try out a shirt and it doesn't look good. I always tried to make sure when we would go to the darker shades in the palette and like to not raccoon I Angela, I would try to like make sure I was like not as confident as the colors I knew. But I tried to portray it as like, Okay, I'm just gonna do what I do but a shade darker and like as a fact not as a thing of like you. I'm using the muddy shades. I think that's another area where we just don't think of it like oh my god, like I don't use that I because like I'm gonna click a god hit. It's also the way in which you're portraying and trying to do it of like, okay, like no worries, like, I'll just use these colors. And your whole point at the end of it was like, Yeah, no, it looks fine. And it's fine that you had to use those colors I was the point is, you could use 10 of the shades in the palette. I can only use the Final Four. Right, shifting slightly going back to junior nordre we're gonna hit the moment we all know is the reason I made Angela, start watching the reason I made my whole family watch the show the reason I encourage everyone, not so much anymore. I mean, personally, I still encourage but like, think about it for yourself before you do. Let's talk about Asians,

Angela 13:15

I assume that you are referring to the fight between Ginny and Hunter.

Jae 13:20

I am but

prior to that, I think since ideally, I'm gonna have a really fast turnaround on this episode. We can do the show notes later. Okay, what's going on in our country right now? I mean, I could answer

Angela 13:33

but there is an epic wave of Asian discrimination and Asian hate happening. There have been so many personal attacks against Asians throughout this country. And okay, I don't know. I'm not completely as aware of this as I should be. So Jay, you'll have to let me know if there's something that specifically started it. Is that because I'm Asian? No. Because you're you have far more time that I do. To keep up with the news right now. Like I didn't, I didn't know about. Oh, okay. Well, no, I was gonna say I didn't even know about the potential part two of an insurrection. That was supposed to happen a couple days ago. Oh, yeah. Whatever. until after the fact when I got the news, like, oh, like that nothing happened were saved. And it was like, oh, something was gonna happen.

Jae 14:16

Um, the main, the main thing for the Asian hate that started it was the pandemic, it's always been there. It's always had its position in the systemic structure of whiteness, and of the way America was set up, but it got bad during when the pandemic started, because the first known case was in Milan, and the thing that I saw from Tick Tock and I know we say Tick Tock a lot, but you just consume so much knowledge on there and something that I said that someone loved was if you're gonna call it the China virus, where's your bed from? Where's your TV from? Where's probably the laptop parsh you're using the device you're listening to all of that was probably also made in China. So if you're going to give China credit for one thing, give them credit for everything else they do for you as well in your daily life. Let's Not selectively choose when we're going to name something because of where it started

Angela 15:04

here here. No, I feel like for the past few weeks, the news has just been filled every night with a new story about like an attack either here in the Bay Area or something that's being picked up from elsewhere in the country. And it's, it's very saddening, but also I'm very hopeful because there have been a lot of great people who have been stepping in and intervening for their neighbors and people on the street

Jae 15:27

for the first time in my life. When I was talking about like traveling post pandemic, I like got a comment made to me out of concern and safety, like make sure that how the representation and things are getting spun around like the Coronavirus are before you travel anywhere. And I was like why it's like basically I was almost Sweetie, you look Asian. It's like I never been told that. And that was one of the things over the summer I saw that oftentimes, I don't know, Angela, if you've ever had to that more melanin, people of color do before they travel places. And it didn't even occur to me. Oh, yeah. Never never occurred to me.

Angela 16:02

Oh, yeah. Because I get the whole thing. People ask me a lot. If I'm Middle Eastern. I, we're not getting too heavy because it's late. And we're we're here. But even before the pandemic, I've been stopped a lot by Security Police, various people who want to know what I'm doing in the area who asked me where I'm from, specifically, if I'm Middle Eastern, or if I'm from Central America, want to know like what I'm doing here what my business is. And then during the pandemic, it definitely was heightened, especially in the first few months, because now we're all wearing masks. And it was a conversation that I had to have with my mom. Like one time I was going out it was cold. I had my mask on. I had a scarf and a hoodie. And my gloves and I pulled the hood up and she's like, take that off right now. She's like, go change. She's like someone is going to think that you're up to no good. She's like just because of what you look like right now. And she's like, I know that's wrong, but do not put yourself in that situation.

Jae 17:00

Definitely. I saw a lot about that early in the pandemic with mask wearing and and I didn't again didn't even occur to me that like oh my god, I'm sure for people who who look like quote unquote people up to no good which shouldn't have a description but microaggressions and implicit biases happen must wearing a mask must make their lives hell because people already think you're no good. Now they can't see your frickin face.

Angela 17:26

Right? Like and just to, just to put this in here, too. I have no problem when people ask me if I'm insert specific ethnicity race here. I'm flattered, but I just I don't I it's very hard when it comes in with a profiling aspect, which is why I bring it up Most definitely. And then also speaking of microaggressions against Asians, would you like to talk about college? Or would you like me to talk about college?

I think you should talk about

Jae 17:53

college. Okay, so within the authority Angela and I were affiliated with there, there was definitely clunkiness within it, and frankly, a decent amount fell into racial things. And I don't think it was intentional. I don't think anyone disagreed or had big grievances or was overtly racist. I think it was a bit of laziness, frankly, of Oh, you grew up in this neighborhood. I grew up right over there. I know these people, you know, these people, we can all speak the same language. I think it was a bit of laziness of finding people who had similar backgrounds and just sticking with them. Yes. Now? Um, yeah, I think I agree. Like, I don't think anyone but I think there were certain there were definitely certain groups. No, probably not everyone. And again, these weren't like you couldn't sit with someone or it wasn't that exclusive. But it was a thing of, if you want the entire group, and again, this was over 100 women together, there would be a group of there would be different groups. And they happen to also easy to pick out racially, not all of them. And again, if we hold everyone to mix around, they could and they would and it would be fine. But they naturally gravitated to people of similar backgrounds, races, a disease. One of these groups was a group of Asians in the organization. Now, no matter the bad behavior, exclusive behavior that may or may not have been conducted with this group. They had a reputation and chapter and one of the things and I was not a part of this group. So talk, we can talk more about my internet, my intersectionality struggle on another time. But I was not great friends with these girls. Again, I like them, but I was not in their group. I was not in their main group. I had different friends who I still talk to Angela is one of them. other girls who I love to say I was not part of the main group of Asians in our chapter. And so I would hear some of the feedback coming from girls and one of the big comments being made was like, I can't even tell them apart. And the response I would always get from friends when I would kind of even girls I was close to I'd call them out on it was like, Oh, well, you're different. And when the one differentiating point, it's like, well, they all look the same. Well, you're different. What is the deeper point being made there? And again, these were my friends, these are my friends. But I think microaggressions, particularly also against Asians were not as prominent and validated as they are now. So I'm glad we're getting there. And I don't think it doesn't excuse the bad behavior and the perception that these girls would give off to other members of our chapter, because rude behavior is rude behavior no matter who it is. But it also doesn't excuse the comments that would be made, especially that to me, too. I don't know whether they were trying to other me from them, or trying to, I don't know,

Angela 20:38

I don't think anyone was trying to other you from them. I think that sometimes, especially when you have a group of close friends, sometimes you tend to think of each other outside of outside of the spaces that you occupy and think of yourselves as all in you don't tend to think of each other in the individual spaces that you occupy. And you tend to push yourselves all together into one communal space that in your mind you share. And I think that that's where those lines can get to be blurred. And we start saying things that can be hurtful to one another. Like, I know, I definitely probably know I've I've definitely said at some point, I don't know who it was, I couldn't tell you. I don't remember her name in some form of saying like, I don't it, there was no good way to differentiate between people. And that's definitely not okay. And I don't think that there's any sort of excuse for it. I think that we just need to recognize it. And we need to recognize it and do better. And I'm very sorry for the part that I played in that.

Jae 21:45

Thank you. It's okay. In a few episodes from now we talk about medical implicit biases will not medical implicit biases through the lens of medicine, and I admit to some I grew up with, I think they can happen for everyone. And it's an active decision on how we choose to move forward once we're able to have the awareness of them. But in this show, in terms of the scene that to me was the most impactful and the reason I demanded Angela watch the show as soon as she finished Outlander. I don't know to you we're in the middle of but I made you fat

Angela 22:17

Gossip Girl.

Jae 22:18

Gossip Girl. I made her pass Hilary Duff very poorly singing Lady Gaga to watch

the show.

Angela 22:25

I know. Okay, just a quick segue. They did her sad really bothered me, right? He did her Sodor nothing I thought on Tick Tock through the day like holy shit that was forgot how bad that was really though. T

Jae 22:36

he scene I made Angela stop for so in episode eight. There's a scene between half Taiwanese, half Canadian real life but half American on the show. unter who is a typical all around student he tapped dances. He's in a band. He's an AP classes very college train, or as the bunny daughter says, Oh, I suppose as in Gilmore Girls, they call her she's on on the college trade. The treadmill track crop conveyor belt. There we go. He's very much on the college conveyor belt. His family's very, very education focused with him. And then we have Ginny who grew up single mom, dad loving caring not as a mature place to be a stable father for her half black, half white. And do we discuss the background? Or do we just discuss the fight?

Angela 23:29

Um,

I think we can talk about the background a little bit

Jae 23:32

as most kids at some point your teachers make you write essays and read them. And this one was for a gold star for your college resume. Yeah,

Angela 23:41

national essay competition. Yeah, can't really but

Jae 23:46

this one, the topic

was where do you feel most at home Hunter from what we hear at the end? Right? It's a very respectable essay of wherever he feels at home. In a very essay like for Ginny on the other hand, when her artistic dad comes back into her life on his Christopher Hayden motorcycle takes her to the slam poetry event to help her find what's the story only she could tell because originally she was gonna say oh, they're not in Westview. That's one division. Shoot was very well Mary she feels at home and wolfberry It's the first time after her mom's made her move throughout her entire life she feels at home and her father Zions whole point is Can anyone else write this essay your essay should be something your home is only where you can feel at home. So she writes this amazing well I I'm gonna say from my perspective and amazing slam poetry essay about kind of starting with checking a box of black or white and going through her journey moving through the world with her mom being biracial, very intersectionally full and never being able to check a box to anyone's satisfaction anything to add.

Angela 24:51

I literally resonated with that piece so much.

Jae 24:55

I feel like I've heard Meghan Markel make a similar speech. Well, I've heard look like someone make a speech similar to the check boxes thing or do is make that comment I never knew it box check yes I know you've made and people my life like I think Meghan Markel someone who I can really resonate with set it as someone who has very close ties to royalty as well so it finally sunk in a bit. Got it.

Angela 25:18

Okay, I feel like I'm gonna have to now start tweeting Meghan Markel. Anytime I have a point that I really want to resonate with you and just be like, am her be like Hello, my friend.

Jae 25:27

Don't be silly Meghan

Markel doesn't have a Twitter well

Angela 25:29

she's probably gonna get one back now after her Oprah interview we're not there yet. Okay, but do you have anything to add before I go into the fight so I'm done up really well I don't think there's anything else that we need to go into just we have Hunter's very traditional piece and then we have Ginny's artistic spoken word essay type essay and there and this is all for their AP English class where they already have

Jae 25:52

Okay, go for it hunter wins which is the which I realize is like kind of the missing is going to be the point to lead into this hunter ones the SI he wins the contest. And also throughout this course, we've already mentioned that during his teachers racist microaggressions. Left and Right, frankly, he gets more and more over and emboldened through the season. And yeah, they transition from microaggressions to full on aggression. Example, being in the last episode, the N word comes up and they're talking about we can't use it now. Very much ch vibes from that comment. And then direct though that right, Ginny, like you know, like the word didn't mean that but now it's like, we know what's bad now. Right?

Angela 26:29

But it wasn't bad then.

But he was the only

you you was the only person who's kind of black like he's he pushed it real hard. Oh, my God. It was horrible. And can I also say, too, I went back and I watched interview da dear Lord, yes. The ch interview I found the unedited version.

Jae 26:47

There was no edited version. Sorry, there's no edited version. That's hilarious. Like they're gonna edit. There's no edited version. Other news me there was have clipped it, but there's no, there's no edited version. From the source.

Angela 27:02

Yes, correct. I originally watched not from the source. So yeah, well, we'll post that too.

Jae 27:09

After hunter and journey couple in love. Um, they say they're in love. So go with it. Okay, well, we'll go with that for now. We can talk about that later. Is that the point? Is that the point of the couple in the honeymoon stage better?

Angela 27:24

I don't even know if they're in the honeymoon stage. I think that they're in the going through Jamie and hunter a

couple

Jae 27:30

better. Yes.

Angela 27:31

They are a couple. They are a couple doing couple things.

Jae 27:34

Great. Okay, couple. A couple of things there. Judy's house and hunters kind of been like, hey, like no hard feelings like yours was good. Mine's more traditional Judy's kind of just sitting there. And you can tell she's stewing. Like not really sure what to say no, she wants to say something. Everyone also knows Ginny should have one. Ginny's was amazing. Hunter gave him fine essay, but the emotion the way genu read it the way I don't care if they wanted a traditional essay, quote, unquote. Ginny's was so powerful, she should have won easily hands down, right. So Ginny brings up the hunter of like, I really should have one right. And then obviously, take out race take out color right now. They're both like gray blobs. And that's kind of an uncomfortable situation to be in because, oh, you're, you're dating this person, you want the best for them. But also, like, you're the thing that stopped them from getting the thing they wanted. So it's also kind of a good thing. Like, if I am pro you, then I didn't deserve to win. And you could tell that Ginny was not factoring in that in whatsoever of her making him admit that she one he was saying he didn't do as well. And he was key one, not based on mer, which is something that as a POC, we can all relate to a bit of being told, like especially Black BIPOC, but I think most non whites have heard the thing of women also but PFC women intersectionality we're big here. I'm twice as hard for half as much. So I think also from Hunter side of it was like, I also had to work extra hard to get here to get this essay. So by all that, you're also telling me that work didn't matter? Because you want me to admit you one. So take out the race portion. That's an uncomfortable conversation. Oh, completely, because I don't care. Like what sort of relationship you're in. That's a very awkward position to be in. I know, personally, I have a lot of passion of what comes next. So I feel like it's best if you start out or you go first.

Angela 29:31

So essentially, Ginny poses this question to Hunter, you know, I'm, you know, I was supposed to win. And his response. Honestly, his response got to me a little bit, because he's like, well, it was an essay competition. And yours wasn't exactly an essay. He's like mine. He's like, I did what I needed to do. He's like, I wrote what they wanted. So I think almost in that way, he kind of admitted that his wasn't as good. It just checked all the boxes. She literally talked about checking boxes. But he did check all the boxes. I agree. Ginny then goes on to say, you know you only one because well, I'm paraphrasing here, you know you only one because our teachers are racist, right? And he's like, well, he's like, how can he be a racist? Because I'm not I'm half Asian. So he can't I'm, I'm half Asian. So he's only like half racist, right is very close to the line? I don't know. I don't think it's exactly but it's very close.

Yeah. And then he and Ginny then continue to argue and a lot, a lot of things are said do do we want to list those out?

Jae 30:35

I don't know them off the top of my head. Do you think it's better if we list them? Or if we paraphrase Ooh, pardon me? Um,

Angela 30:41

I think I okay, here's the thing, I think that we should actually list them out. Because we really, this, I feel like this conversation really resonated with us. So I think we should, we should do this. So I just give us a moment. While we look this up, you can look up the ash month,

Jae 30:57

they both start going after the intersectionality. And the POC part of each other some of the things hunter brings up to Ginny is our white friend works better than you jerk chicken, I know is a phrase that's thrown in there. For Hunter, it's about I speak better Mandarin than you do. I also know that in terms of Ginny expressing her experience, one of the lines that she says to hundreds, I don't see our white friends fist bumping you. So there's a lot of things that as a person of color, who very much moves through white spaces, and being x enough or being not enough really resonated with us. I think that there has been a lot of controversy surrounding this scene.

Angela 31:49

And there are a lot of people who are unhappy with it. But this has really echoed a lot of conversations that I've had in my life when trying to explain the way that I feel to people who have then tossed it back at me saying, well, I go through this. So are you trying to say that this doesn't matter? Are you trying to say that there's no sort of oppression or prejudice in my life, and I know that the phrase oppression Olympics not triggered a lot of people yeah, was pulled out during this scene. And it's a lot of people have felt like this was a very choppy experience, where they just grabbed for the most obvious things to hurl at each other during this fight. But I also think it speaks to a semblance of realism, because the remove the context of

Jae 32:43

this show was created and mostly written by two white writers. I'm pretty sure this particular episode and there's even a few interview on it was written by two black writers. And this particular scene took experiences from both of the care from both of the leads in the scene. So I'm not trying to say, Oh, look, the writers have a black friend. But I'm also saying in the context of this very sensitive personal scene that does resonate with people like Angela and I are who have some more background by disregarding the scene as a whole, it's naive to think that similar way to the other end, just because you don't know anyone in the experience doesn't mean it's not a very valid, vindicated scene for other people.

Angela 33:25

So I think what this scene does really well is show what it's like to be someone who is multiracial, who has only really moved through white spaces, who doesn't really and who doesn't really know how that truly has affected their experience, because it hasn't been something that's really been addressed with them. Like we never saw Ginny and Georgia talk about what it was like to be an interracial family or things that they experienced because of that.

Jae 33:54

You never saw Georgia and Austin have anything. Georgia never dealt with it Georgia and Ginny never dealt with it together. And Austin for all of the bowling laugh gnomon School nothing had to do with the sister looking different.

Angela 34:07

No, I think that it very much showed like the way that these things can boil and build up inside of you. And then when it's never been addressed with you, when you've never had that chance to talk about it. You don't know how to communicate it. You don't know how to you don't know how to express it well, even to people who are going through the similar experiences you

Jae 34:28

Another criticism I saw of the scene, which I'm surprised as criticism was they had no answer. It ends with the hunter storming out endzone crying, and that just kind of perplexed me because for them to have come to a resolution would mean society would kind of have an answer to intersectionality and racism free which would which would mean I don't I don't think there is an answer and that's what I loved about the scene was there was no bow that there was nothing you could hide. There's no thing that you could hide under they go at it and it's painful to watch. But it's real life. And I think for them to have done anything a or given an answer would have been an injustice to all the people having these discussions, Angela and I wouldn't do this podcast or talk about things like this, if we had an answer, frankly, if we had answers, we probably wouldn't even have a podcast at all. So like other people to hear my opinions, I'd have enough of them even if they weren't racially motivated.

Angela 35:26

Possibly, we'd have to disregard one of our pillars, though. And what would we replace it with?

Jae 35:30

Pink,

Angela 35:31

pink, final answer?

Jae 35:33

and glitter

Angela 35:34

debatable? We'll have to, we'll have to take that uppdrag our next meeting

Jae 35:37

will thank God, we're still at our sectional and our world still doesn't get it.

Angela 35:42

Granted. I have to say I have incredibly I have an incredibly great group of friends and a very supportive family. So none of these conversations have ever hit as well. Actually, no, that's a lie. This conversation has hit that close to home because I once dated someone who tried to tell me that he had it harder than me in terms of his ethnic background. But do you go do you all want to know what the kicker there is? We have the same ethnic background.

Jae 36:13

The difference between he and Angela, he is white passing, which puts a whole different dynamic on to him saying this

Angela 36:22

for days and days. He went on and on about how it was profiling. And he was oppressed for

that.

He had actually asked me how my family felt about my dating a white man. And I was like, so are you white? Or are you an oppressed minority? I'm confused here.

Jae 36:42

That's where we get intersectionality. But there's a difference between, for example, what I recently learned Rachel Kirkconnell whatever we want to go with, she's half white half Honduran, everyone's been affirmed her as white because she looks white. And I'm sure her experience with her Honduran side, I'm not saying she has not had issues culturally. However, in America, it is not the same carry on

Angela 37:09

no and not not to say that

Jae 37:12

he is multi. He is multicultural. And that's not what you're taking away? Yes. And certainly,

Angela 37:20

yes, this person is multicultural, there probably was a level of profiling going on. In a way this does hit close to home. I fully don't know if I have the words to think about this. So I'm gonna have to put it in the show notes. But when it comes out when these things happen, when you're not ready to talk about them, you say a lot of things that are not okay.

Jae 37:44

Well, how did I'll edit around but how did you feel hearing him try to equalize your experience of similar ethnic background with the way color works in this country?

Angela 37:57

So

I had not long before this incident tried to explain to him something that happened to me and he completely dismissed it. He was like, Oh, he's like, that's not real. Like that didn't happen. I'm sure they were just having a bad day. I was like, No, I'm pretty sure they meant what they said.

Jae 38:13

That's the joy of microaggressions. People can ride them off as that person was having a bad day. That wasn't as bad. You're taking it too personal. That's what microaggressions do. microaggression is basically Gaslight.

Angela 38:26

You oh my god really, though. But yeah, nothing that Ginny and hunter said was okay, at all. That is not the way that you should have those conversations. But when you don't even know how to have that conversation with yourself. That's what happens. Agreed. And also, I don't I don't fault either of that. I think it's a script. It's characters. It's a show.

Jae 38:49

However, I think the fact that it did resonate with you, and I and other people this scene was, it was painful to watch. But for once it felt like the conversation I've had and I've asked, and I've recognized in terms of this discussion of intersectionality and race, and where What are you? Where do you belong? You're not this enough. You're outside enough. It was the first time I've heard it echoed. similarly to the way I help, I've moved through the world, definitely.

Angela 39:20

So if you haven't watched the journey in Georgia, maybe give it a chance, please don't write it off. We'd really like to see what they're going to do in season two as far as character development, and now that they've opened the box and set the tone, we'd like to see how they explore these issues further,

Jae 39:36

most definitely. I think there were a lot of valid criticisms of the show. I think there were a lot of people who just didn't recognize or understand the conversations happening on race throughout the show, I think, because I don't think similar we have to you and I could really relate through the way we've moved through the world. A lot people move through the world differently. And if you don't have anyone like this, who's experienced it or you don't experience yourself, and might not be the easiest perspective to grasp, just like I will not know what it's like to be a brown or black person of color. I will never have that experience.

Angela 40:08

Yeah, like you and I will never know what it's like exactly to walk in each other's shoes. And that's why we have each other.

Jae 40:14

Yes. And I think that by the show opening up a discussion in an area where I don't believe I've seen much room I know you said a little while. Well, I've told buyers everywhere has done similar work in the space. It was 10 episodes, it was a 10 episode teen drama, and they can do more if they get the time but at least they have the conversation is the way I look at it.

Angela 40:35

I think I think what we have to remember in this situation is that first we need to start the conversation, and then we have to grow with it. And that's where Season Two comes in. Definitely. And it's the first exactly, they're sophomores. They can definitely get in another two years of really good growth here and go to college as well rounded people hopefully, yeah.

Jae 40:55

Or since they already have people from Degrassi they know how to very easily transition in a new class. Oh, very true.

Angela 41:01

See, I'm very sad that Netflix picked up Degrassi and then only gave us like, what three seasons for and then ended it or pay us for blame somebody else pick up Degrassi. My kids need to watch Degrassi Micah's oldest watch the old Degrassi the old old Degrassi the Maya Degrassi and then Netflix, or can we get old Degrassi on DVD? Well, what if DVD players don't even exist? blu ray, hologram, whatever is playing about 10 years from now, I'm going to need all of Degrassi on that, like 15, what's a 15? player?

Jae 41:31

No, like 15 years. If you roll today and watch show them to Grassi, they would be 10 in 10 years, I think I started watching when I was 10. I know but you're not having kids today, if I'm not mistaken.

Angela 41:43

Oh, correct. Yes. All right. 15 years from now, somebody needs to send me Degrassi.

Jae 41:48

But Angela, and I would like a season to to let the story progress as we think this this story did open some doors and conversations and shine lights on things. And it can do more if they get time and constructive criticism and feedback to do better. No, I really hope that the writers and Netflix and everyone is are hearing a lot of this and they can take it and make sure that season two addresses that one of the things I know we both want to see is I mean is more interactions with brucia and the Moto race people the monetarist black kids at the school and I know you would like to see that monarchist group of black students also branch out or at least see their experience when they try to branch out.

Angela 42:32

Definitely no, I'd love to see that. I want to hear more about Nora too. She was my favorite of all of them outside of Ginny. People hate Ginny on wine. Really? People hate journey online. Wow. No. And then I want to know, I want to know more about early Marcus. I want some flashbacks to freshman year with his best friend.

Jae 42:51

I know for us the whole embrace. intersectionality was like a big deal. Like we also said Max and Marcus's dad his death. We find out at the end that someone who seems like a bitch her husband has some very clearly terminal illness going on. There's the whole murder plotline. There's bullying, there's LGBTQ and at least personally, there's broad Yeah. And personally, it didn't feel nearly as performative as a lot of shows do when trying to tackle all the things they could have done better. And I hope if they get to season two, they do do better. But for a first season and everything they hit, it felt like these things fit because these people existed not these things existed. So they made people fit these marginalized communities.

Angela 43:40

Exactly. I don't know. Is there is there another? Oh, yeah. Okay, this is this is what I wanted hunter when he says it's all about survival. I keep my head down. I do what's asked. Yeah, bro. And I don't know, Jay, have you ever felt like that? I know, I felt like that. And I'm not at Ginny second question definitely speaks to how I feel about it because she countered hunter and said, and you're proud of that. And that hit because I was just like, I am 100% not proud of that. I feel like a coward. But it's how it's the best way that I figured out how to move within my world.

Jae 44:14

Um, I feel like I do what I'm told. And I keep my head down. But that's more because I'm highly anxious not because I felt like my validity and acknowledgement in a situation would be less if I didn't more just because I like control and superstructure, because I have major anxiety trusts and attachment issues.

That's fair. But no, I think also the great point that Ginny made during that was I could have written the same essay, I could have followed the same outline you did, and I wouldn't have won because in the grand scheme of the argument that they were having, I think they were both equal and they both made very valid points from their perspectives and their experience that they had to live. However, when it comes to the essay and the actual essay portion of winning, I agree with Ginny. She could have written 100 essay, they could have switched essays and hunter would have won for being innovative different, because like she says,

Oh, another thing that goes in their model minority myth. Asians are known to be quiet good students good at math tend to whatever, and black woman are known to be loud and aggressive for Trump things we personally agree with. But those were more into those stereotypes that were thrown in. Not at all. I'm actually reading an article right now where it calls this fight a fig leaf of authenticity to cover up for bad writing. Okay, yeah.

But if you have feelings on Ginny in Georgia, please comment. DMS, email us we'd love to have open, respectful discussions. And if it's not that, feel free to direct your messages at Angela. She disagrees with that statement. With his long balls. I was just given.

Angela 45:50

No I was. I'm pulling up our outro

Jae 45:55

Okay, I'm like okay, I want respectful open discussion. Any other comments directed towards Angela? Yeah, for everything else that Angela? Oh, dear Lord, please don't please be respectful with me to actually I'd appreciate that. Kudos to anyone who made it through. I'm 90% sure this is going to be a double episode. We appreciate everyone who listened to all of this. It was emotionally vulnerable. For me. I'm not gonna speak for Angela. But I feel like I also know there was a lot of passion behind things and probably listening back and editing there are some choices and some things we might make sure to clarify and or elaborate within our shownotes so please check them out at inomniapod.com/ep16 or inomniapod.com/ep17 . We'll be together in the show notes.

And please give us a while because Angela does those but the episodes will be up and we'll repost on Instagram after this show art imitating life and as much as we both love seeing it. It's also hard and vindicating seeing something that's your experience validated in media. So we appreciate anyone who gave us the time and listen through all of this and would love to have more of these discussions. If anyone also would like to come on and explain their experience. You're more than welcome to Oh God, we validate we validate all other experience and we've we are open to listening and learning and hearing everyone else's experiences

Angela 47:24

as well. Absolutely as if you've been listening as you know we love having guests on. So we'd love to have you come and talk more with us about it here

Jae 47:32

here.

Angela 47:32

And on that note Thank you for listening to this episode of In Omnia Paratus grab your coffee bowl and don't forget to rate download and subscribe on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you want to hear about in the comments. Bye

Jae 47:54

bye