Episode 38: Greek Myths & Legends: Unpacking Collegiate Greek Life Stereotypes

Angela 0:00

I pledge myself to the pod loyal I'll always be a p to start a D at the end, and an O sitting in between. Welcome back to and I'm your products. I'm Jae

Jae 0:16

like the letter

Angela 0:17

and I'm Angela also known as AVO

Welcome to August also known as all guests. If any of you know the YouTuber reference, I'm sure Angela doesn't though. But it was Tyler Oakley. He had a series in 2013 2012 2014. Wherever August he would bring on guests for the month. One of his most epic one was his collaboration with one direction. Oh, yes, he had them Miranda Sings well with big iconic youtubers at the time.

I only know one direction from that list. But did you go see him? I

did. I got him to with me. And then our sister who posted it very nice and photoshopped herself into beacon for our August being that a lot of people are going back to school back to campus this year. vaccinated hopefully, no, we don't know. We don't know if the people are actually

Yes, we do. We do hope that you're vaccinated in all forms. Remember when you do go to an American University, we we like all the vaccinations, meningitis, hepatitis TB, all of those here, here.

Yes, going back to campus going back to a bit of normalcy, hopefully. And one of those activities that we partook in was joining an organization, particularly for us, it was a Panhellenic, one under the National PanHellenic Council, which is a social sorority.

joining an organization it just sounded so foreign first second, I'm like, did we join shield?

Well, no, but I think we are speaking of it from a Greek standpoint. But I think similarly to how if you choose to play soccer, there are a lot of crossovers with teamwork that you could learn in theater, I think so joining an organization, a group of people on a campus with people from all yours, there are parts that can overlap in that. Okay,

I could see that it might fully take me a minute to get there. But I think I see where you're going.

Well, you don't have to join a pinata organization. If you joined into like an nphc or a business organization or a law one or an engineering one, then you get closer to clubs that are based on hobbies, like snowboarding and language or something else.

Okay. Yes.

Well, what's going through your head?

I don't know. I think I'm still just stuck on the whole like joining an organization. Like went there. It went very, like secret underground, hidden society really quickly for me. I

mean, if only I could have joined some sort of undercover society or whatever they're called it whatever the life and death brigade is called Skull and Bones.

Yes, yeah. Apparently, there was some article a few months ago that there was a skull and bones chapter at UC Berkeley and some old member like blew the whistle and took them to their like secret underground hideout,

we joined a sorority, and we want to talk about our experience. Obviously, disclaimer, we can only speak about our experience, we are going to try to talk about some things from a critical thinking standpoint and be a little bit more objective. But again, our opinions are one campus experience. And those who we know, go on the internet, there are plenty of other views out there from every side, every angle, anything you might want to know one of the biggest things is we went to school on the west coast and Greek culture, which was founded in the south, which we'll get to has a very different and much more intense atmosphere and different meaning. Personally, I would say

I think that's pretty accurate, because I feel like one of the things that you see most when you're looking into joining a Greek organization is that articles will call out the differences between east coast Greeks, Southern Greeks, and West Coast Greeks. And I think by far, the West Coast is very much regarded as like the most relaxed probably lapsed from tradition. And I don't know maybe I were almost like the new wave of Greeks, maybe?

I don't know, take

well, listeners, you can tell us once you finish listening to what we have to say in this episode.

Yes. I remember someone asking when I went through you do a meeting before you formally start going through recruitment where they talk about the process, as if you needed a referral. So I was like a referral for what?

Oh, yeah. So well, I guess like we actually did those, but our campus just didn't place that much of a emphasis on it. So we on the back end took care of that.

Well, yeah, but girls have to show up with referrals. Like when you go through in the south, I have heard like, oh, wow, I didn't even think like goodness gracious. I don't even know what how I don't think I could have joined if that was the way it was.

Where do you want to start? First of all, we should just we should start at the very beginning. Why? Did we decide to

go Greek I have a very particular story as most of mine are. There was a Nancy Drew movie that was on ABC one night and Maggie Lawson played Nancy Drew, and she goes into this house because I believe a football player overdoses and his girlfriend is in the sorority and Maggie Lawson is rushing or going through recruitment to help under cover to discover something about this organization. And so ever since that, and I remember there's a scene with a problem like a strawberry colored cardigan and a pink a white dress and a girls just dress up looking like they were ready for tea. I was six when this movie came out. And I decided I want to do that. I want to join a sorority granted because of the dresses because of the dresses. Because of the girls. I was like, This is fun. This looks pretty I like a big Tea Party all the time. Again, six year old critical thinking wasn't the best Greek kind of came out around the same time as he grew up the American Teenager 16 and pregnant just kind of where they took a situation and glorified bits of it. Obviously, parts of it are true, but they kind of really took it on. And what I really got from Greg is yes, there's the backstabbing the Senator's daughter, the hazing they did. But like somehow through that all especially because I loved Ashley, I still got a true sense of sisterhood in there, kind of deep down, I was like, I don't fully get how this is gonna work out. And then obviously on the news, joining an organization was very Greek organization was very frowned upon. Every other few months, you're saying things about people dying of hazing, and of all poisoning and all of the terrible things Somehow, I personally felt that I don't know I was meant to be in one I was meant to have that that was going to be my way to have my group of friends. Because I had, they'll have a very core group of friends from high school and middle school, but I moved out of the city I grew up in so I knew I wasn't going to have that and I wanted to make friends. And one of the ways I suppose the easiest to make friends as well put yourself with hundreds of other females because I'm typically across girl I have always had more girlfriends, the guy friend, so I was like, Okay, if you join a Greek organization, you're gonna meet a bunch of people. Are they all gonna be my best friend? No. And additionally, I like the philantropy element of it as well. I like the idea of helping people and having a built into the organization and I love the built in social calendar, you would get

entered j fashion Ladies and gentlemen, she really thought this through from many sides.

Jae 7:18

Yes,

Angela 7:18

I feel like I didn't. Mine was a little bit more. I don't know, feelings based, like most of my decisions are. But similarly to Jay, I was really attracted to the media portrayal of Greek life in TVs and movies. And of course with the show Greek definitely. I would totally be a capital girl.

Jae 7:39

I have a cat biota.

Angela 7:41

What, what? No, oh, oh, sadness, I would have been as easy Thank you.

Jae 7:47

But you would be a try pilots be?

Angela 7:51

Well, we'll never know, I really liked the way that it was set up just because it looked so fun and outrageous. And frankly, if anything I probably just needed felt, I felt like I needed something a little bit fun and outrageous in my life. And then when I was in high school, I had several friends who were a year and two years older than me. And when they went off to college, they joined sororities, and when we would talk they would tell me about how much fun it was and how great it was that with the friends that they were making, and how it really helps them feel like they had somewhere that they belonged. And I don't know if we've ever really touched on this. But our college was one that not many people really designated as their first choice. It was the backup. And it was definitely my backup. But they gave me a nice scholarship. So I went on ahead with it. And I fully plan to transfer after my first year, but recruitment and the idea of a sorority. And after meeting some of the people that I did, I really wanted to stay and go through that process and keep building those bonds.

Jae 8:53

So I mean, I don't know when you wanted to get into this, but you kind of mentioned you were going to transfer after your first year you joined your second year.

Angela 9:00

So yeah, so I actually was planning to transfer after my first year but then, of course, like arriving on campus, and I was really anxious and ready to make friends and I lived in a very social dorm. So that had a nice like built in friend unit there then several other girls in my dorm, we're also going to go through recruitment. So I decided why not I'll just go ahead and sign up. But unfortunately, the recruitment process for me just did not work out well through a intense culmination of events. So we'll we'll talk about this in a later episode. But our recruitment was set up at the very end of our first full week of classes. And on the Friday before in what we call our zero week, I actually had a very intense fight with my boyfriend at the time where he called and left messages and horrible horrible emails for like an entire week. So then actually showing up on that Friday for recruitment. I was a complete wreck. I did not get to put my best foot forward. And a lot of the women I met during the process were incredibly understanding. But they also didn't get to know me. And that really is huge during the recruitment process. So we had, we had six sororities on campus at the time, I only got callbacks to three. And I was devastated because I felt like I'd done something horribly wrong. Because in the way that our process was structured, it's like you generally get four to five callbacks on your second day. So I dropped from the process, because as we all know, as well, with my anxiety, and I'm perfectionist, if I can't do something to the best of my ability, I don't want to do it at all, it did take that second time around, and all of that to fully be comfortable with the process and able to really open myself up to it.

Jae 10:44

This wasn't one of the things we'd planned to talk about. So sorry, Angela. But I remember hearing your story. And then also, when you're on the other side of recruitment and prepping of reasons girls might drop or might not want to go to and one of them really, truly is my boyfriend is uncomfortable with it. And as someone who's a bit of a later bloomer with dating, but also grew up in a very feminist quality, equity household that was in which that was Mind blown, because that was a frequent occurrence we ran into and things we had to question. And what was ironic was, a lot of these guys seem to not want their girls to do it because of the fraternity guys, which are crazy part because they don't have to go to parties to be in a sorority. And I felt like that was such a male fragility point. Looking back,

Angela 11:33

it really is. And ultimately, like this, this relationship ended maybe like five days after said events. So it ended the day before our recruitment process, but it thought it was just I don't even know how to describe it. It was just terrible. He was so convinced that my being in a sorority meant that I didn't like him, and I wouldn't have time for him. And I was just going to forget about him, and that I thought I was better than him in some way. And it's like, That's not at all what patients are about. It's about bettering yourself and building connections and community to have something that will enhance your life not to erase other parts of your life.

Jae 12:13

Well, one that obviously was his color showing, but also, a lot of these couples were ones where they both didn't go to the same university. But then the guy would join a fraternity and had no problem joining a fraternity, just his girlfriend on her campus can join the sorority, which was just infuriating. A lot of girls actually go through recruitment, I mean, not a lot, but some of them do because they are dating fraternity guys. So they're just around the girls and get a sneak peek of the environment as Angela did, because all some of her dorm mates went through it. Our campus actually encourages you to go through recruitment as a second year instead, as we heard my very prepared self did not need that. Very early on.

Angela 12:52

Did you actually did you have a set sorority in mind when you were going through recruitment?

Jae 12:57

So I had a few in mind, I'm also pretty susceptible to first impression. So it was very clear to me were all the pretty girls, I'm using air quotes, the pretty girls went or like it was very clear of like, which one got the guy's attention. So obviously being a little unsecure me freshmen. I was like, I don't want those. But then when it came to who I actually liked the reason I will always go back to this because she is amazing. The reason I picked my chapter is because I met my big my second day, on your first day you talk to people and I actually met my grand on the first day and I met Angela's grant on the first day, they are in groups of people. So you talk to more than one person at every every time. And the second day, I got matched up to talk with who is now my big Holly, who is still my life edge. And talking to her. I was like, Oh, she's fine and perky and peppy and pretty and can sing but also not as ascetic and superficial as these other girls in the sororities. So I really liked that about her. And it was a thing of we're taught this on the other side of recruitment of they fall in love with you. And then they fall in love with the chapter because you can't fall in love with an organization.

Angela 14:04

And you know what the days that you spend cumulatively like, what three hours with

Jae 14:09

additional you're only meeting at max about 12 people during that time. And if those aren't the correct people like I think you can find your home in any organization. So of course you know what's best for you. But like how Angela dropped out of the process. I think if you had stayed you would have found your tribe at whatever organization you had found home? Probably

Angela 14:27

yes, like that's very true. But the same time it just felt so overwhelming. I was glad that I waited because by the time I went through it, I went through it the second time, it felt so much more comfortable. And those three sororities that I got callbacks to it's like I still felt really great connections there and especially after having that additional year. There were a lot of faces that I recognized like from classes and just hanging out with other people but I mean, I think where I ended up like is the best place.

Jae 14:58

Yeah. Referring to if you don't Get your number one choice like you could apply Oh, yeah, yeah, some people might drop because it wasn't the year they needed another year. But another thing being like, What I meant is if you had gone called back to Alpha Kappa zeta, and that's not where you want to be, but it's where you got your bid and you had stayed, you would find your tribe, I feel like it's hard kind of the duality of life, the duality of things that you can find your home and your tribe anywhere if you work for it. And also, when you find one that fits, it's hard to imagine having another one but it can't exist. Just like a lesson. Obviously, I learned in college, I no longer believe there's one match out there for every person on the planet, like it's a one to one match. soulstones.

Angela 15:42

Okay, so wait, I'm sorry, going back here. So you didn't have one chapter in mind.

Jae 15:46

I had, I had the top two which were the superficial top. Okay. But the day I met Ali, I was like, Oh, I mean, one. I also want to call back, I think I got three call back. And then on prep, I only got profile our sorority which frankly, I didn't mind, because one of them I kind of bombed intentionally because I don't want to go back and the other one I colored weird on their craft. So it was on the floor. I was having trouble doing it. Oh, that is

Angela 16:09

awkward. I know. I'm not really into the craft portion of the day.

Jae 16:13

Thankfully that stopped.

Angela 16:14

Yeah, no, I, I also really wanted one of the top ones. And I was just completely set on that. But that was because of a friend from high school. And she was one at her school. And she was always telling me about how much she loved it. So I was like, great. If it's for you, it's for me. And that's where I'm putting all of my effort in

Jae 16:31

the other thing, every organization and chapter from campus to campus is so different. Because I remember coming home for break one year and hearing that someone else who had joined Greek life at their school there, oh, you're the cocaine goes on my school. I'm like, Oh, that's not that's not why I do. That's not what I was aiming for. Or I know that our chapter at UC Berkeley is known for being popular, but really systemically focused. Depending on where you go. The environment can be completely different. I know some schools and some of our chapters can be quite despicable, depending on where you go. So

Angela 17:04

it just depends. Speaking of academics, we want to get into our first mythbuster. Go for it. So for all of you out there who are considering joining a sorority in this upcoming school year, we thought that we would go through the five most common myths about Greek life and give you our take on them. So number one, all sororities and fraternities do is party fuck yeah. Well, I feel like we're also maybe not the best people to talk about this because we went to a party school,

Jae 17:32

did we go to a party school? Or did we go to a school that just had more PLCs than non PLC and got judged and critiqued for that? And it was therefore reflected in our academic value?

Angela 17:45

So I have heard this before and I both agree and disagree with it. Because if you think about our experience, we did put our school as a whole I feel like did put a lot of time into parties but as we were on the quarter system, there was also a limit to it. So weeks zero through seven of any given quarter there wasn't there was a zero week Oh, I call that like the the gap weeks but spring break. Yeah is zero week for you a spring break when your spring break is zero week because I would actually pull all of my syllabuses ahead syllabus syllabuses, syllabi ahead of time, and I would read everything and prep go through old notes. I think overall, like across the board, I think our campus did have quite a few parties. But everyone was also very good about it, particularly within the Greek system. Because once we hit like mid week, week, seven parties would basically stop and everyone would be in the library prepping for finals.

Jae 18:39

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration of thing, week seven, I think week seven people started to care more, but I don't care whether it was a Sunday, a Wednesday afternoon, if you wanted a party, you could find one Greek or not. I do think the big point though, is to be in an organization. Similarly to be on a sports team or anything, you have a great requirement, you need to make grades to they in NBA active member of that organization.

Angela 19:07

And I believe when we talk about being an active member, that means not only are you considered in good standing, but it also relates to all of your participation. So that would mean no sisterhoods no socials, no date party formal or anything like that for you that quarter. If you didn't make grades the quarter before.

Jae 19:25

Yes. And every year we raised that GPA limit. Once we saw I remember my first year or my second year again, we go through our chapter stats, and we're like, and then what eo tells us like, Okay, last year, it was x this year, it's this. And we really want it to be this right? Like we know you submit your GPA, your high school GPA before applying to recruitment. So all the chapters know what your GPA is. Exactly. Well if that's if you're a first year and then if you're a second, third or fourth year you have to submit your previous quarters GPA. Yeah. So they know and and was our chapter had a whole position to honor and to uplift our academics, director, scholars director of scholarship, yeah, Director of scholarship, whose job was to make sure everyone made grades and then reward and encourage those who didn't or had differences are anything necessary to succeed academically, we would throw 30 parties for all of Greek life where you would go sit in a room with everyone quietly and just study for however long you want had for scantrons they had snacks you typically see sisters or friends from other classes there.

Angela 20:34

Did everyone need to submit study hours? Or was that only if you were borderline in trouble academically?

Jae 20:40

So study hours worse? They started out being for everyone, then I think it was if you got above a three Oh, you didn't need to? We sit at least going from three oh to three, five, right. Yeah, then I think I think three and above, you didn't need to do it, you could do it. I loved when study hours went digital. Because I haven't defined that book in the library, you had to go to the library to study which was the thing that bothered me the most, but I don't go to the library like. So we had an app, my second, third and fourth year, we could just what it would put real cool, actually, it would go by your location. So if you were at like center of campus, or if you were on campus, they would let you mark it obviously not in the classrooms. Yeah. But you could mark it when you were at a library or if you were at the design center. And personally, I go with one the organization's themselves hold you accountable in that way. And to I wouldn't have joined an organization that didn't have any sort of standard of academics.

Angela 21:40

Now I agree. Because of course, it's important to build your social life and everything while you're in school. But you're there to learn. You're there to set yourself up for academic success and future success.

Jae 21:51

Go team. All right. Well, I

Angela 21:54

guess this goes we kind of went into Myth number two as well, which was joining a sorority or fraternity will hurt you academically. Our I think our overall opinion here is it will not hurt you academically if you do not let it hurt you academically. It

Jae 22:07

also I think helped me academically because I had sisters in the majority of my classes. So if I had to miss a class or I overslept, or there were projects, I pretty much always had a guaranteed partner or someone I could study with are also joining us already. They were always people who had already previously taken most of my classes. I was a business major. So yeah,

Angela 22:24

you were lucky that way. I didn't have the same thing.

Jae 22:27

Okay, I was a business major. There were a lot of other business majors who would take in the classes knew which professors when they taught would be good for me had notes they could give me books to pass it down. And no one was ever we'll get into this more when I'm sure there's something about like alcohol consumption. No one was ever like oh, like I need to study and there were a god you need to study like mom like it's party like everyone's like, oh, okay, we'll see you next time or do you want to get boba after? Or do you want to do something else? Like it was never a pressure to put academics below everything else we actually like encourage people to stay home to do I mean, that was my I think overall, we were very lucky. And

Angela 23:03

I think our all of our campus organizations as a whole placed a really great emphasis on academics there. So that myth busted. Okay, Myth number three.

Jae 23:12

Being in a fraternity or sorority means you are paying for your friends. Oh, I was the poodles already. Yes, you pay to be in the organization. But it's the same thing of paying to be on a sports team paying to be a member of a theater club, a society outside of college, like a networking group. There are a lot of things you have to pay for. And then it's like going to Costco like yes, you pay for your Costco membership, but you also receive benefit from your Costco membership.

Angela 23:40

And depending upon what Costco membership you have, you can use it at different Costco locations is the Can

Jae 23:47

you only use your Costco card at one location?

Angela 23:49

So no, I guess I guess the better way to phrase that is depends. There are different levels of Costco memberships, I think there are three and there are three different types of Costco stores. So I have like the highest Costco membership, you can use it at all three,

Jae 24:02

I don't have a Costco membership. So I wouldn't know that.

Angela 24:05

I love Costco.

Jae 24:06

Whenever I go. It's just me because there's so many things in the prices and they're so big. Oh,

Angela 24:11

yeah. No, I think that's I think that's the great thing about suburban living Costco and pantries. I'm obsessed, and we'll need to have both for the rest of my life.

Jae 24:21

But going back to Greek life, you pay but then you get benefits. For example, we had three major events a year we had a date party, if semi in a formal and you could look at as you paid money, but it's like Think of it this way, if you have to pay a venue to host the event. You have to pay for charter buses because we were such a large group of people over 21. So under 21, there had to be a liquor license involved, which can be quite expensive. These things cost money and sure we could have just done small party. Why do a small house party when you could basically get to do prom for three years or years, however many years I got to be on a yacht for three years. You're yours. years ago, right? Yeah, I got to go on a yacht for three years, I also got to go to Disneyland for under $30. We went to Knott's Berry Farm, we went to San Diego Safari Park, we did a lot. Yeah. And that also was able to work because we were such a large group that we would get discounts. Or you could do bulk pricing. If they had said, Okay, everyone drive your own car, we would have been driving 50 to 70 cars to these places. And then also insurances covered, because we're a larger organization. So without many people, we can't just go individually, like roll up to Disneyland God, could you imagine the liability? Yeah. So being part of an organization helps weave all got into the event planning process, which we all need to do for an event, just the difference about being in an organization is you have alum and a support team and have like real adults behind it to make sure the legality is there in case anything were to happen.

Angela 25:50

No. And I think just also another way that people look at it very often is like, Oh, it's like you're paying people to be nice to you, you're paying people to like you. And frankly, like not at all the case, like granted, like we were we were a large organization, 100 people, and I mean, have you all at our smallest, we were 100 people. And I know it's not exactly like the thing that everyone wants to hear. But not everyone liked each other all the time. What I know shocking, right? So like, yes, it's like you make your friends you, you get to know people who you're a little bit closer with, you make other friends who are in the same classes with you. Or sometimes you just have your going out friends, or sometimes you have the people that you just casually pass by on campus and you wave out and say hello, how are you? And that's okay,

Jae 26:36

I also made this great point in an episode you guys haven't heard yet. But are you I'm still friends with some of these people. And we've now been out of college as long as I was in college, and they're still my friend. And now they're no longer paying. So now they have me like half off.

Angela 26:52

Yeah, no, I was thinking about that the other day. And I was like, how many people from our sorority? Am I still friends with and the number actually shocked me not not in a bad way? Like I was very happy. But I just I didn't realize because I almost forgot how I knew these people. Yeah, I don't go that far. Oh, okay. That's that's just me and my horrible concussion brain just forgetting everything.

Jae 27:13

But yeah, we don't consider paying for friends you're paying, you're also investing, you're investing in an organization to get to do these really fun things that are not feasible on an individual basis, agreed. And our next

Angela 27:26

point is only students who are rich and join Greek life. Again, listeners, we're going to tell you, we're not exactly the best people to talk about this from you. Both Jay and I had family members who paid for our membership in Greek life for

Jae 27:43

all four years,

Angela 27:44

oh, our time in college. So we can't speak about this personally. But we do know from being within an organization that there are ways that it can be a little bit more affordable, or that the organization will work with you on payment plans or things like that, not to say that it's going to completely alleviate the burden, but they do try to make it as accessible as they can

Jae 28:09

additionally known people who did have part time job, were able to cover it. I don't know how much support they got with other things like they could get academic support, but their family would just say you have to pay for this organization want to be in but I don't want to say you need to be rich, but you need to have disposable income. Yes. Which not everyone has. So I feel there definitely is a barrier to entry there because the scholarships are only given to people once their members so you didn't you have to get enough to get to become a member.

Angela 28:39

Exactly. And particularly when you are a new member, there are a lot of first time fees that you pay. Oh, yeah, that do add up

Jae 28:47

my only like a random and this isn't saying we've acknowledged that there is a bit of privilege to join an organization. But Greek organizations are not the only organization that have these fees, and you don't hear the same stigma around those. I don't disagree with that. I think Rich's a stretch, but I think you need to be in a place to have disposable income and have time Yes, because they are being in a sorority or fraternity. Again, choose your own adventure, I can be like a full time job

Angela 29:17

because between wanting to participate in everything that you can from sisterhoods to socials, you also do have weekly time obligations such as your chapter meeting volunteer hours, study hours, if you additionally your organization may have some sort of other participation requirements for outside things like for example our or made it a requirement think my third year that we should attend one university or campus sponsored event weekly to help build up our general cultural education. We'll call it so yeah, I think I think there's definitely a great degree of time that gets invested Regardless of whether you're a new member, an active member, like a graduating member, or even an alumni, you're getting involved with an alum organization that you should just really be prepared for.

Jae 30:12

Thank you for playing that little Mythbusters game with us. We hope you enjoyed our completely unbiased thought out thoroughly correct opinions.

Angela 30:21

I guess now getting into

Jae 30:23

hos the chips, you're gonna let them go bad. They've been out all day. We can eat the whole bag. I give two chips, and then you let them get stale. For me. I like stale chips. I mean, you want quad soda, you like melted ice cream, you

Angela 30:36

would like stale chips. But I guess now moving out of Mythbusters. And getting into the critical thinking portion of our episode brings me way back to discussion days in early college. Woohoo. But yeah, we just we had a few topics that we wanted to cover today now that we have moved past the heyday of our Greek life. And now that we're on the other side of it, we have a few more perspectives to draw from and a new lens to view things with. So our first question here is now in 2021. How do we feel about single gender organizations?

Jae 31:13

I think they should exist. But I think we also need to make sure that everyone is able to find their place.

Angela 31:22

I agree, I feel like this is something I go back and forth on a lot. Because I do understand particularly from the perspective of your small formative years, that there are some things that just aren't as comfortable in mixed groups. And so it's easier to sometimes have like a little bit of that separation, but at the same time the separation isn't used to enforce that one is better than the other or that one needs to be separate from the other. It's just an option.

Jae 31:52

I agree. I think one of the examples we talked about is when we do things like host sister hugs, which is just for our chapter, or we go on retreat, where there is a level of safety and protection and comfortable and emotional vulnerability we're able to have because you have that camaraderie and protection. And sure you can do that in a multi gender organization. But it might not be the same level of comfort discussing things like I'm not saying these were topics discussing, or these are just things discuss our own women, a woman's right to choose a soul. What is the sex trafficking that just because we saw by thinking about the themes of the movie, birth control, yes, periods, getting a higher education as a female what it's like to navigate college as a female searching for jobs and then countering the glass ceiling. You're here. Yeah. So

Angela 32:44

I think there are a lot of benefits to it. But it's something that has been very controversial. And in some cases, I know the big one for us has been at Harvard University where they put in actual academic like penalties for their students that were part of single gender organizations.

Jae 33:01

How do you do that?

Angela 33:03

So they were ineligible for scholarships, they could potentially be barred from joining other organizations on campus, Student Government, things like that. They were getting black marks on their transcripts saying that, like they were willfully like ignoring university policy,

Jae 33:22

do you know why Harvard put that in place to begin with? So

Angela 33:24

I think it was because they said that single gender clubs, or is it single sex or single gender? Oh, I just watched this Grey's Anatomy episode. And Amelia was like, You can't have a gender. Okay, so it's single sex, cuz she said, You can't have a gender reveal party? Because some places I recognize up to six genders, right?

Jae 33:42

Yes, sex is the biological parts, the DNA of it. And then gender is how you identify but it's like a drag queen, for example, can identify as male and have gender expression more fluid is female. So I guess he was a single sex organization. Okay.

Angela 33:58

Yeah. So I guess their overall the overall view that the university took was that single sex clubs were discriminatory. And so this was their way of trying to abolish them, but particularly within their Greek system, the organizations fought back.

Jae 34:12

Yeah, I think I think there is an importance to have single sex organizations. However, they should not be the only organizations that exist on a campus as diverse as Harvard.

Angela 34:22

Next. Our next question is, well, I guess this is just something not even really as a question. We just put it as something to think about. But a lot of these organizations were founded during a time where they were not meant to be all inclusive. They had some very singular ideas of who should be a member, and that generally meant white men and then eventually women.

Jae 34:48

Yeah, looking back. A lot of the organizations were founded right before, during and after the Civil War. And in the south, I know most organization Greek organizations were founded, or at least pay a lot to kind of see in the And I think there are some things within that that are problematic. My counter to that would be our country was founded on that. And we're going to toss out our country. I think it's a how we deal with it our organization actually in December of 2019, in the newsletter they sent out did a whole section on how our organization made a stained glass window reminiscing on the old south of the Confederacy. Dear God, I missed that one, um, December of 2019. It was bad, but it was the first time we owned it. And I think they didn't have to do it. I'm not saying they shouldn't have, but they didn't. This was before 2020, when we all started learning, and unlearning, and all these things like they wanted to start addressing these issues beforehand, and the roots they came from, and I think people always say, compare the US and slavery to Germany and the Holocaust. And the thing is, if you do any research, please do research. Germany has done puns and continues to to repent for that the US barely acknowledges slavery, let alone the repercussions, it still has, till this day, our organization doing something to acknowledge and own and want to be better and strive to do better. Like, for example, I remember I was very proud when I heard we were one of three panel and I thought the time to allow transgender members.

Angela 36:21

I think overall, in our organization in particular, they are trying to do as much as they can to make strides to move forward in positive and inclusive ways for everyone. But I think a lot of that also will depend upon how individual chapters and universities go about their recruitment and outreach to everyone on campus because we went to a very diverse school and granted our chapters on campus looked overall incredibly diverse, but we still really had some gaps

Jae 36:50

in terms of like, what inter intervene ableism is the one I see most But

Angela 36:56

no, I think, yeah, in terms of overall diversity, such as, like, ableism, when it comes to like cultural identity.

Jae 37:02

I mean, I feel like we had very different first character.

Angela 37:05

No, I think we did, it's like, but still, it's like, there are like some areas and like, particularly when you look at like group photos, where it's like you can you can kind of pick out this organization like still looks like predominantly white. And so I think, again, that goes back to how the campus is going about their recruitment, marketing, whatever you want to call it, and making it as open and inclusive, a place for everyone who wants to participate to participate and not feel as if it's not for them, because they don't match a certain criteria.

Jae 37:38

And as we've already discussed in that other myth of great gloves only for rich people, no, but it's also not for everyone. Everyone cannot afford to be in a Greek affiliated organization. And so that already when that it's it's classism, it's a bit of classism. And I don't know how they could get away with it. Because then they're it's basically a nonprofit, which is fine, but it's not the same purpose. And behind it,

Angela 38:04

is it that it's not the same purpose, or is it just that it functions differently?

Jae 38:09

But how would you have the money to afford everything we do?

Angela 38:12

Well, I mean, and this is, this is hearsay. So I can't say this for a fact. But I have heard that some fraternity organization, their alum, like contribute heavily to their dues and make a lot of the events that they do possible. So what if that was something that we did, and maybe we paid a little bit more in our alumna dues, but that helped to alleviate some of like the everyday burden. But like, what if we were able to take care of like new member initiation fees, that's about $2,000, that someone doesn't need to think about true,

Jae 38:46

but then also would do it once they're already in the organization?

Angela 38:50

Well, no. Well, I mean, yes, kind of, but that's still part of the initial upfront cost within their first six to eight weeks.

Jae 38:57

So I mean, I definitely think there are ways to make it more accessible. And we should make it more accessible to people who could be great members who might not just have the funds to do so. But I also think, however, it has to happen part of the reason the organization's do what they do and are able to have what they have is because they are funded, yes. I think we still might be able to find some sort of alternative funds. I may think we could for like the philanthropy foundational element, why should anyone donate money so that girls can go on a yacht and have fun? Like, everyone would love to do that? Yeah, you could do it. But then it's like we literally paid our dues. There are four years and I'm not, I'm not willing to continue to pay in donated specifically back to our chapter. But then I think part of it looks more like I think we need to make organizations more accessible. And I also think joining an organization is a small lesson in life of learning to manage money. True and true. I'm not saying that. I don't think get over it or credit card amount. Thank you. Do take out loans do something. However, I also think that like everything is a choice and finances are a choice, you're gonna have to learn one way or another. And if it came to let you I go to Starbucks or do I get the nicer dress for formal? Or can I borrow a dress? Because I really want to go out to this dinner because it's my anniversary like I think it was a it's a, it's a good microcosm for learning how to budget yourself.

Angela 40:22

Oh, no, absolutely. Like, I'm not saying that it completely should be funded in another way. I'm just saying that. I think there are some instances where maybe dues don't need to be as expensive as they are like, I think there are some things that generally like you just you shouldn't have to pay for, or should they should be considered optional

Jae 40:41

socialist.

Angela 40:45

Alright, and our last critical thinking point here, when should you actually join a sorority?

Jae 40:53

This can be a critical thinking point, I'm gonna go drink water, maybe do like a 20 minute meditation. Guys, this is really Angela's bread and butter, her soap box, her TED Talk, this is a big Crux and something that really shaped her experience. You cannot tell me I'm wrong, either. We are we already pre had this discussion. I didn't tell you you were wrong.

Angela 41:19

Oh, no, just generally to the world. No one can tell me I'm wrong about this. That is my overall mentality. So just so that you all know going into this, but continue.

Jae 41:27

We all already acknowledged on this podcast on various that your feelings are valid. So whatever Angela expresses, I will echo and validate because they are her feelings, the conclusions and some of the lines and connections she makes. We do sometimes, but I can't. I also had a different experience within this. I think if I had joined as a second year, I think that I still could have had a different experience than you to do through this. Going into it. You had a few reasons before you joined. But there it was first, second, third, whatever. There you had some things working against you from the get go. No. Do you not factor that into your whole second verse?

Angela 42:09

No, because I feel like it was an overall chapter mentality versus who was just like you personally don't belong here, versus other people telling me that you're you joined as a second year you don't you don't get my love for this organization. And go for it. Well, everyone, as you heard earlier, in this episode, I joined our organization during my second year after a failed first year recruitment process, and I almost dropped my laptop. Yeah. And I was completely over the moon about joining an organization like my pop organization, and just so excited to make all kinds of new friends and build new connections. Because like my, like, my first year was fairly lonely, like I lived in a very social dorm, but I didn't have a lot of friends. I feel like I had people I was friendly with. But more often than not, I felt like I was kind of just a little bit on the outside. So I was super happy to essentially have like a new fresh start. But one of the things that always made me feel like a little bit other there as well was that as joining as a second year, a lot of people who had joined during their first year would describe their experience as sorry, y'all I'm slightly distracted by Jay stretching right now.

Jae 43:32

required in this part of the conversation,

Angela 43:34

who would generally describe their experience as different than mine, because they have joined in their first year and would have their full four years of college with this organization and that they had a bond to it that I would never understand. And in some respects, I believe that's fair, because they have an additional year in the org like another year with our friends to love and grow and build connections. And I get that but at the same time, it's just the phrasing of it never sat with me properly. Because what what should it matter when anyone joins an organization so long as they are doing it for the right reasons, coming in with open minds ready to participate and contribute and give back and open themselves up to others? So whether it four years, three years, two years or even one year?

Jae 44:26

Yes, Jay, you sound like you're applying for the Bachelor and you just found out someone there wanted to be a contestant instead of find true love.

Angela 44:34

So am I Greg or am I the guy that Katie sent home for his bachelor audition for Thomas?

Jae 44:40

Because you just said who's there for the right reason? Oh,

Angela 44:45

well, I need to some extent, you know, that is true. It's you have to be there for the right reason. If you're just there to party, you're not getting everything out of it that you could have and you're not actually going to make real friends because if you're only looking for people that you're going to hit up on a Friday night to drive you around. What are you really getting out of this? Like at that point go on Bumble BFF and put in there like hardy girls seeking designated driver Friday

Jae 45:10

through Saturday. Now Bumble didn't exist back then.

Angela 45:15

Oh god, that's right. I think I actually used Bumble. And it's like first iteration. That's terrifying. I think another one of the reasons it just really doesn't phrasing just really doesn't sit right with me is because it feels vastly general and kind of condescending because it doesn't take into account a lot of the real life things that are happening when someone's considering their time in recruitment, whether that is being a freshman being away from home the first time living in a dorm not having the funds to even pay to go through recruitment, like not even taking into account your chapter dues and new member fees, but just paying the what is it like 20 to $40? Yeah, like the $50 to actually participate in said recruitment, the time whether some people were commuting to school, and maybe they had like a two hour drive, whether or not their class schedule was conducive to the actual first day of recruitment, because like what are there are classes going on throughout the day, and recruitment would start at 2pm in the afternoon, and it's college classes go until 9:10pm at night, so and this just I mean, frankly, I can just keep going on and on. But it's just it's Oh, sorry, no, the one more that I'm going to hit our transfer students, students that came from community college or other schools where maybe they didn't have a Greek system, and they were now transferring to a school that did and it was something that they really want it to be part of their college experience to then tell them like, oh, sorry, your love for this organization will never be as deep as mine, or you're never going to get as much out of it as I did. It just that doesn't sit right with me. And I really, really don't like it. So I think no matter when you want to join a Greek organization of any kind, social, multicultural, business, professional, whatever, whenever you join is when you join, and you're going to get out of it as much as you put into it. And that sounds super cheesy, but it is actually very true. And I mean, frankly, we'll even talk about that even more, because in my first two years, I was barely able to put anything into it because I was super sick all the time. And my last year was my favorite year with my organization because I was actually able to do more. So yeah, that is me on my soapbox. And I've tried to tone it down for today, because I want you all to listen and hear me and understand where I'm coming from and take that into consideration when you speak to people in the future. But again, I'm not happy with it. And I'm just gonna leave it at that. I feel like this phrasing just also comes in at the most inopportune of times. And phrasing just really comes in at the most inopportune of times because usually this is like repeated back to you. When you're in the middle of describing how happy you are with your organization. Like how happy you are you joined how I feel that Oh, that just sounds super cheesy. Yeah, so usually, well, you're gushing in your excitement. Someone will then then tell you like, Oh, sorry. But I've had I've had a few more years than you. So I'm doing better? Well, I just think a big one for me is that this phrasing just operate in direct disregard to the other super cheesy phrase that we hear all the time, the whole, it's not for yours, it's for life. Because if it's for life, what does it matter when you join, because if the whole point is that your experience is going to be to continually grow, not just within like your new member class, but with your whole chapter, and then with your alum groups after that, and any other person you meet from your organization, what does it matter how many years you've all been together, it's supposed to be that you share a common experience and values that are supposed to be a baseline for you to then build a further relationship upon. So I think some of the better phrasing that you could use when someone's telling you that they just joined maybe as a second year or third year or even a fourth year, and you know, you have some more years on them. Maybe tell them like I'm so happy that you're able to experience what I have been experiencing, like, I don't even think that you really need to, like get into the whole numbers game with them. Because I don't think anyone's going to dispute that, yes, you have been in this organization longer, you probably do have some more experiences and memories than I do. But that's not to say that the length of time that you've been there is any better, or amounts to something necessarily deeper, because again, it's all about the effort that you're putting in. I think I'm good. I would say if you're not a first year and you really want to do this, but you're a little bit worried about hearing things like that, or maybe about how you would even be received going through recruitment or maybe a little worried about what your place in chapter might be like because you're a little older. I would say don't worry about it. Because when you find your people, they're going to be your people because they're your people. Not because Have the time in your life in which you're joining. Like, if it's again, oh, I'm super cheesy today. But like if it's meant to be, it's meant to be gay we actually had when we were in chapter, we had three girls who are fourth years join.

We even had one girl join, who was it who was just there for study abroad. So she literally joined in fall as a new member was an initiated member here at our school for two weeks. And then she went back to South Africa. Yeah, so it's like, it really is for anyone at any time. And honestly, we're just we're so happy to meet new people and find new friends. And I think all of us really, we probably have a little bit of, we're probably all maybe a little bit socially awkward, and the way that recruitment is structured and the way that like we have conversations set up in advance where like, we're thinking of topics and questions to ask where we're just as nervous as you are. So come on in and hang out with us, even though we're more on the back end of things. Now, Jay and I so you know, hang out with the people that you know, we used to hang out with, they come back. And in addition to joining when you're later, I think it also gives you maybe just a little bit of a leg up in terms of comfortability, because a lot of the people who you'll be talking to, you've maybe seen around campus, maybe you used to dorm with them, maybe there were in class with you, maybe they work at the Starbucks that you always go to to study. And you know, if you're really lucky, some of those people might even be friends of yours. And then you might be lucky enough to even talk to them during the recruitment process. I know for me, there was actually one of my really good friends and she is my sorority twin. So that means that we have the same big and we actually got to know each other through dorming together. And then she not allowed for any of us to really talk during recruitment, because it's supposed to be like a completely separate, like no influence policy. But before that, she would tell me all the time, like how excited she was for me to go through recruitment and meet everyone like not just in her organization, but other organizations as well. And that she was really excited for me to fully find a place that I liked as much as she liked hers. And then you know, I liked her place so

much.

I just like moved in. And you know, now we share a big and everything. But I am I just moved on in and stole her life. But no, and then things like that, like they really do add to the experience as well. Because going through as a second year, I think half the people who I spoke to, I already knew like either from dorming from classes, like maybe they were friends of friends or someone who had met at a party or at a philanthropy event, like during the past year. So it really took a lot of the pressure off. And I think that actually greatly helped to my being able to open up and really let everyone know like who I was and find the right place. actually super fun fact for all of you too. I'm pretty sure j and I crossed paths multiple times during recruitment. Every time she describes her outfits, I very much remember someone who looked like her like wearing something similar. Also, like given your name and my name we were probably like into like the same partner groups. Jae Would you like me to talk a little bit about the recruitment process. And then for all of you again, considering recruitment later this year, recruitment per school is all run very differently. And I'm sure right now with various COVID slash quarantine restrictions still being in place or possibly like being converted into like hybrid roles before they're fully lifted. Like I can't tell you exactly what to expect there. But I do think it's important for you to remember to be yourself and I know that there are a lot of emphasis that can sometimes be put on what to wear or what to say how to act, what to bring up and what not to bring up I think it's at the end of the day, it's like you want to make sure that your personality is coming through. So if you want to talk about Doctor Who or how much you love sharks or Harry Potter or baking Disneyland, making your own jewelry if you're really into cars, like whatever you're into talk about whatever you're into, like let bill actually know like who you are, like don't just say what you think they want to hear. And again, when it comes to what you're wearing. I'm not really much of a dress girl. I think I wore pants and shorts that my entire time through recruitment and I did get a little bit more dressed up I had on like the tailored shorts and oh, okay, yeah, for proof. I did wear a dress. Yeah, but as much as I could, I wore my pants and my shorts and just some regular flat sandals. And then I did get dressed up for prep. But again, it's like show who you are like show like who's actually going to be showing up at sisterhood and socials and date party. Let everyone know who to expect and then who knows. Like you might actually find someone who Gonna like geek out as much of a doctor who, as you do, yeah, Jay has a whole family line and me. Oh, and for those of you that don't know, pref night is generally the last night of recruitment in which you will go and meet with one or two sororities who are very interested in having you join their organization. And they want to share a little bit more about their traditions and their history with you get to know you a little bit on a deeper level, have you meet some more people? And also have it be an area in which you can really open up about any potential like questions or concerns that you have that maybe you've been a little bit nervous to ask but that you would just like to put out there before you go ahead and sign up for this commitment.

Jae 55:48

So working the weekend or the week backwards, you have bid day, which is Yeah, you found your home. Ideally, craft is kind of the Last Supper before you pick your home, you get to meet with the girls and then before that is philanthropy day or days, which is typically a more casual what they would call a snappy casual outfit no matter where you go. And it's where you really learn about what that chapter holds dear for their philanthropy. So for some it is literacy in children. For some it is cancer research or summit is the Ronald McDonald House St. Jude's Girl Scouts of America there are a bunch of different philanthropies that different sororities hold dear. So definitely that is a park where someone, multiple girls in our chapter had either a personal experience or a familial relationship with what our philanthropy was, that really does tip the scale depends on which one you join, and also what they do with it. Some are more fundraising based, some are more hands on ours was pretty hands on which I loved. We did things to help children's and one of our experiences was getting good to go to a school that we helped to fund and play with these children. And it was one of the most rewarding experiences of my time because I love kids so much. And then before philanthropy, we have open house day one day days one now they've split it because people going through recruitment, the numbers have grown so much, it just makes more sense. And this is kind of like your first date, your speed dating your speed and in all of the chapters unless you do have class during that time you do get to meet all of the organizations on your campus and then really treat it like a first date, ask anything, everything you want to do, because even though you want what the ladies if you're in a sorority or anyone who's I guess anyone in a sorority, they may not identify as ladies they also want to have and grow their organization into right intelligent driven young women who would like to be a part of their organization as well and so we're excited for recruitment every year we want to meet more people we want to pick up littles we want to expand our families we want to meet those study buddies designated drivers Korean barbecue eaters that we already love Disneyland passholders was a big one because our schools and so how we're looking for that so you are not powerless in the situation you do get a choice and it's about really similar to everything dating, making friends, job hunting, knowing your non negotiables and then really trusting the process like they say on the bachelor and on that note

Angela 58:10

Thank you for listening to this episode of in Omnia paratus grab your coffee bowls and don't forget to rate download and follow on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you'd like to hear about in the comments by

Go Greek

Jae 58:30

or don't use your personal choice

Transcribed by https://otter.ai