In your 20’s there’s a lot going on between first jobs, new living situations, finding and making friends, exploring your interests, and then doing it all over again until you find where you’re meant to be – And if you’re like us, maybe your still looking for that place. 

Today we’re joined by Heather Ashley Baker, the host of in between podcast, as we discuss where we’re at in our adulting journey’s and where we want to be. From career changes to moving halfway across the world, Heather’s focused in on her passion and happiness, and we’re really excited to bounce some of our big questions to her. 

Show Notes

Today we are joined by Heather Ashley Baker, host of In Between podcast, to talk about what life is like in the space in between college graduation and finding your life passion. Heather’s podcast focuses on conversations with creatively-inclined entrepreneurs and discussing the moments when you embrace life and explore your passions to build a new space for yourself. Heather herself did that, moving to Australia and transitioning into a job in graphic design! If you want to learn more about Heather, her podcast, or her blog, you can visit her website:


In this episode we discuss: 

  • Heather’s background, transitioning from college with a Theater degree to her first job 
  • Passion Projects: Heather directs a high school musical 
  • Evaluating the direction you want your life to take 
  • Changing careers and evaluating how you are going to get there
  • Breaking out of your comfort zone and pushing yourself 
  • Navigating adult relationships and discovering what you want long term

Angela 0:00

Good morning, everyone. In Omnia Paratus listeners, today, we are joined by our friend Heather and we're going to start talking about adult life. And what that all means. And honestly, just what this real in between space looks like from that time that you leave college to when you find your passion and life and start doing the things that you're truly excited for. and building the life that your five year old self was always dreaming of.

Jae 0:32

I know Heather from our podcasting cohort class, she has a podcast called in between which I love listening to. Similarly, Heather also loves Brene brown and Gilmore Girls, we definitely had a lot to start chatting about. And we're excited to have you Thank you.

Heather 0:48

Yay, I'm so excited to be here. I mean, anyone who loves Brene brown and Gilmore Girls are my kind of people so

Jae 0:55

So to get started. Heather, do you want to give like a summary, if you will of like college major to what got you Australia? Because there's a there's a bit in between that I'm assuming?

Heather 1:05

Oh, yes. So when I went to college, it's really funny because I think when I went to school, I wanted to I always knew I wanted to do theater. So I was I grew up doing like performing and theater all the way through high school. And I got to college with the intent that I was going to be a theater major. And then I remember talking to my parents, and they, you know, are saying you should do something sensible communications, or you know, like a degree that you can do a little bit more with outside of college, although I would actually argue that communications is probably a pretty generic major as well. And I'm not really sure what I would have done with that. And I think it's changed a lot as well, like, so I was in college like quite a few years ago. And I think the majors have probably changed a bit, which is good. But I remember sitting there and I just decided, you know what, I love theater, I'm going to major in theater. So that's what I did. And I did love it. And I had like kind of grand aspirations of being an actress for a while, but I just don't think I ever really had an enemy to sort of really pursue it. So when I graduated from college, I moved back to Minnesota, which is where I'm from, and I went to school, I went to college in Missouri, in southern Missouri, so kind of random, but that's where I went. And when I got back home, I was like great. Now what do I do with my college degree in theater. So I got a job working at a health insurance company as you do once you've graduated from college with a very creative degree. So that wasn't very much fun, though, it was pretty awful. But I think I felt like I needed to pay the bills and be a responsible adult, which is like what you feel like when you graduate from college. And you know, what kind of it was a similar that dilemma of like, Well, what do I do with my theater degree. And so fortunately, though, I had a great opportunity to go back to the high school that I went to and direct their high school theater production. And I loved it so much that I ended up doing it for five years in a row. And I did like plays and musicals and just amazing productions, and worked with amazing high school students. So I don't feel like my degree was like, totally wasted at that point. And it was, it was a lot of fun. It's still probably to this day, one of the best experiences that I've ever had. And along the way, I sort of changed career paths a bit, you know, I had the theater degree, and I left the health insurance job. And I had worked at a couple of other jobs here and there. And I'd actually worked at a children's theatre company as well, but just like on the admin side, and then as an understudy as well. So I did get to do a little bit more performing to college. And I decided that I needed to have a career that I loved. And I loved being creative. And I'd always been like a bit of a, you know, child artist and drawing and you're loving creating. And so I had a friend in college who was really into graphic design. And that was really inspiring to me. So then I started pursuing graphic design, and I bought myself a laptop and a copy of Adobe Creative Suite. And I started teaching myself how to design. And then I decided, well, I guess, you know, if I want to become a designer, what do you do you go to school to become a designer, which I would say now probably, I would say you don't have to go to school for everything that you want to be. But I think that was still the mentality, and maybe still is to some degree. But at any rate, I went back to school for graphic design a two year technical degree and graduated from that program and got my first design job as a graphic designer, an in house designer at a local university in the Twin Cities. And I did that for a number of years. And then I pivoted into user experience design and digital product design and all of those fun things and then it was that career pivot that actually opened the door for me to get a job here in Australia. So it works out really well. I don't think I would have gotten a job here. If I would have just stayed in graphic design because the world was really shifting into digital design. And so that was where I wanted to be. I worked for a number of years in UX in Minneapolis. And I always, it was always a dream of mine to move to Australia. So I was able to find a company here in Brisbane or in Brisbane, Australia and Queensland here where I am currently, and they sponsored my visa to come over and be a designer for them. So it was a pretty amazing opportunity. But I definitely think, yeah, all of that experience and kind of taking the chance on different careers is what really opened the door for me to get here. And yeah, this is where I am now, which is pretty exciting. So yeah, a lot more probably to fill in the blanks. But in a nutshell, that's, that's how I got here. Oh,

Jae 5:46

my god, there's so much to unpack. My first question is, what was your favorite? Well, I'm particularly have an affinity for musicals. So what was your favorite musical? You got to produce?

Heather 5:57

Oh, my gosh, um, well, we did High School Musical. And that was really fun. Yeah, yeah, that was pretty exciting. And that was right at the height of the High School Musical craze, as well. And actually, I got to direct my sister in that. So she played sharpay, which was really fun. Yeah. We did Beauty and the Beast and singing in the rain, which are also two of my favorite shows. So it's hard for me to pick between those three, but they were all really like epic, in their own ways that singing in the rain, we actually really did make it rain on the stage. And we had puddles and stuff. And the actors actually learned how to date like tap dance. And if you've seen the musical like they did all the iconic scenes and like dances from the show, it was like, it was pretty cool.

Jae 6:38

Wow, must be nice to have a theater budget.

Heather 6:41

I don't Well, we didn't actually we didn't like that's the funny thing. Like I had a really small private school. And we actually had, we didn't have a proper theater, we just use the gym. And all our productions were on the stage, which was really small, and there was virtually no backstage space, and no fly space or anything. And our janitor or custodian was the one who built all of our sets. And it was myself and my one of my former teachers who was like the producer, he and I worked out how to do all this stuff, like all these effects. And then we had like a few people who volunteered to come in and do like lighting and sound and everyday. Yeah, so like we actually we so that's, that's pretty impressive. Actually, what we were able to do was such a small budget and basically no theater space. Wow. I'm, I'm completely in awe right now. Yeah, a lot of fun.

Jae 7:28

Angela was a tech person for her. Oh, yeah. So she knows all that.

Heather 7:33

Yeah. Yeah, you definitely would know, it's it's a lot of work to pull those shows off as a tech person. Yeah,

Angela 7:39

it is. And like we had all of that not necessary. I think we rented it all. So it wasn't necessarily ours. But we just had it all brought in. And even that was like this huge production, just trying to learn how to use it all and making sure we got the right sets, like I can't imagine like building those. And did you

guys have to pay

Heather 7:58

we built them painted them. We'd rent like sound equipment and lights and stuff. And then like with techweek, you know, we bring in all of the equipment, and unfortunately said that I was working with a former teacher of mine, who was sort of the producer and oversaw all of that, like, fortunately, he was able to help with that part of it because he was much more technically minded than I was. But he gave me totally free reign. Like I think of all of the experiences I've had in my life, I look back on that one as being the time where I actually felt like I had the most creative control over anything that I was really working on. Like he just he was awesome. He was so great to work with, we collaborated really well. I bounced ideas off him, he just let me do like he let me carry out my vision for the productions. And then he supported me in all the right areas. So it was really, it was really cool. And then the students would volunteer. And a lot of them had been doing tech crew for years, you know, their whole high school career. So they generally knew how to do the lights and the sound and they'd come in and alumni would come back and help us like we'd have like a super Saturday where we'd bring it all the equipment that we rented and put it all up and we'd start tech rehearsals the following Sunday, and then performances the following week. And yeah, that's pretty cool.

Angela 9:06

Oh, my gosh, I have sort of a weird follow up question. But Jay and I are in the portion of our lives where were passed like our first and second job. And were potentially like looking into like new career paths. And you coming from a place where like you had the creative control. And it was exciting and happy. Do you remember what the day was like when you decided I need to try to find something new to do.

Heather 9:32

Yeah. And I feel like to be honest, I've probably had that moment a few times. In the last couple of years. I think like if you're if you're referring to even just the transition from because I mean, the directing, that was all like a side job. I wasn't even doing that full time. Like I would work a full time job. And then I would go and I went direct where I would do the rehearsals and the production like in the evenings afterwards. So that was like a side thing. Yeah, I don't know to this day. Yeah. I don't know how I'm to this day. I'm like, I don't think I can't do that anymore. But yeah, so that was in my Yeah, that was like that was in my 20s when I was doing all of that. So I was working day jobs that weren't really in my field, I guess, you know, they were just sort of to pay the bills and to get by. And so I think that that moment that you're talking about, like, I've always just had a strong sense of what it is that I should be doing. And, you know, don't want to be doing I guess, like, I, if I'm not happy in one of my jobs, if I'm not feeling fulfilled, I'll know like, it just won't sit right with me. And so I do remember one day kind of just sitting at this job I was working, I think it was I was working at a theater at the Children's Theater, but I was working like as a salesperson, basically, like booking shows. And so I was like, kind of in my field, if you would consider that to be theater at the time, but not really fully. And I was directing on the side, but I think I just realized, like, well, what am I actually going to do? What do I want for my life? And is this really bringing me kind of fulfillment that I want from my day to day job? And is it really what I want to be doing, and you just kind of have that moment where you're just sitting in assessing what you want for your life? And like I said, I think you have that moment. I've had that moment, many, many times throughout the course of you know, from post college graduation until now, like, I probably had that moment last week, you know, like I just and I realized it's actually good idea to keep checking in with yourself and thinking about Am I still on the path that I want to be on? And if I'm not, then what can I be doing differently? Or should I do something differently? And do I need to pivot? And that's actually okay. And because I think we're, we're kind of taught to believe that we need to pick this career and you kids, you ask kids, when they're little like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you've got no idea. And then you grow up? And you still ask the question like, what do I want to be when I grow up, and you just learn more about yourself and about what you like to do, and what brings you joy. And I think the more that you learn about yourself, then the more informed choices you can make for what you want to do with your career. And if that means going down a completely different path than the one that you are on that. I also think that that's okay. And we should have the brace for ourselves to be able to do that, even if it's different from your college degree. And, you know, the, the thing that you studied, you know, it's not like it ever totally goes to waste, I think, in that sense, but yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.

Angela 12:19

No, it definitely does. And I think I don't know, I guess my follow up question to that would be what kind of conversations Did you have with yourself to try to figure out what your passion was? Because I know, at least I have zero clue what I want to do. Like I have a lot of things that I think would be interesting and fun. And would potentially like have like a great impact on other people. But as j s j laughs at me, Oh, I'm so glad we're having a therapy session for you. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Because I'm very interested in a lot of nonprofit work. And I'm considering getting like my Master's in nonprofit management. But at the same time, like, I always think about it like, this is another degree that I'm investing in. This is another year of my life that I'm potentially like, do I quit my job and go to school? Do I take two years and get this degree and still work at the same time? And then what if at the end of that two years, I no longer feel the same passion like that? that terrifies me,


Jae 13:15

I feel like there's definitely other as your podcast about the in betweens, and I felt there's so many because there's in between the decision of knowing you want something and that you, you have that feeling of like I'm not where I want to be. And then there's the other thing of feeling, being able to tell yourself, you're more likely to succeed or fail, or at least that's what I would need to tell myself to make a transition like that. Like, what do you tell yourself in that feeling of why like, I'm a big sunk cost person and like when I've already invested time effort, I'm already someplace, I can place it very easily. So what either Did you what value did you have? Or what belief did you have in yourself that you knew going forward was going to be better than just holding on to the good who had?

Heather 14:00

Well, those are really good questions. And I don't know if you're going to like this answer. But I think what I've experienced is that there's honestly like no way to really know with 100% certainty that it's all going to turn out the way that you think or want. And I mean, because I've taken a lot of risks, and leaps that I wasn't really sure we're going to pay off. And I'm still doing that now. And like even just, you know, going back to school for graphic design, or, you know, deciding to transition into UX career and coming to Australia, a lot of those were risk. I remember when I transitioned into user experience thinking, you know, I was essentially giving up a full time paid job. So I took took an apprenticeship to learn how to do user experience design, and it was paid, but not very much. And so I was walking away from a full time paid position in order to do that. And when I started that, I was thinking, Okay, I don't actually know if I'm going to enjoy this or if it's going to work out for me or if I'm even going to get a job and you experience at the end of it now it was like a relatively lower risk, I suppose then committing to do another degree like full on degree program, it was a three month apprenticeship program. And fortunately, I did really enjoy it. And I was hired on at that company at the end of it as a designer. So it did work out. But I remember thinking that exact thing, like I don't actually know if this is going to pan out, but I just know that I need to try it, I need to take the chance because it's something that I really want for my life. And at the time, even when I did that, I was thinking, hey, this potentially could be the thing that would get me to Australia, because I already knew at that point that I wanted to try to live here in Australia, and I knew I needed to get a job, I needed to try to be in a career path that could get me a job here in this country. And I didn't know much at that point. I just thought, well, this could open the doors for that. So I guess so I guess to Jay, to your question, you know, like, how do you know I mean, you just you don't really, really know. But I think yeah, if you do know yourself, and I think that's maybe where Angela, your question was coming back to is like, how do you? How do you actually figure out what it is that you like to do and that you're good at, because you have a lot of things that are of interest to you and lots of possible paths, you could walk down, and it's hard maybe to narrow them down. And so I guess what, what I've done, what, what's worked for me in the past, and I talk about this on my podcast, as well. But I just literally I sit down in front of a blank wall, and I get out a stack of sticky notes. And I just write things out. And I just give myself the opportunity to be really curious and really explore what's inside. And I did this big exercise a year ago, it was right, you know, in the middle of the pandemic and I was in lockdown in Melbourne and I was really is a really uncertain time for me because I thought I wasn't sure at that point if I was going to be losing my job or not. But I knew that I was having one of those moments that we talked about previously where I thought I know that I'm unfulfilled in my job, I know that I want to do something different. I know I want to work for myself, I want to start a business podcast, all these things. But what does that mean? I've got no idea. So I just sat down. And again, I gave myself the space to just really get curious with myself, I wrote down every I literally just wrote down everything that I love, like things that light me up things that bring me joy, I wrote down a list of all the skills that I have all the experience that I've had from all my previous jobs, and like life experience and everything, and I just put it all up on the wall. And I would give myself a couple of days to do that process. So I'd sort of put it all out there, I'd kind of sit and I'd look at it and I'd reflect on it. And then I'd walk away and then come back and do a bit more. And eventually you kind of start to see some themes and some patterns emerging. And some of it was information that I already knew about myself, but some of it was new. And so I was able to kind of take all of that patterns that I saw from doing that. And I wrote it all out, I put it down in my notes in my laptop and decided, Okay, so I'm going to go from here. And at the time, I decided I was going to start doing some coaching and working with women because I love encouraging people and they love helping people down their creative paths and to pursue their dreams. And so that was kind of how that all came about. So if you haven't taken the time to really sit down and do an activity like that with yourself, and just you know, because I think you can get so caught up in the world. And you're thinking about all these things all the time. And until you really kind of sit down and pause and give yourself a chance to really think through it all, it just continues to swirl around, you know, and then yeah, and you get it all out in front of you. And that's why I like using sticky notes. Because it's like a very tangible, like physical visual thing that you can put in front of you. And it doesn't have to be sticky notes, it could be something else it could be whatever works for you, or writing in a journal or drawing or painting or you know, whatever it might be. And I think there's sort of that part of it. And then there's the other part of it where you go, Okay, so this thing really speaks to me right now, this is lighting me up, this is bringing me joy. And based on the information that I have right now I'm going to make a decision to do this thing. And if it means getting another college degree or quitting your job, you're essentially what I've learned anyway, is you're just making like the best informed choice that you can at that moment of your life. And if it changes down the track, then it changes. That's not to say that there won't be some kind of heartache or challenge or something. But if you need to pivot later, then you pivot. So yeah, I don't I if that's it's hard to know, 100% for sure. You know, that's kind of the practice that I followed anyways, in the last few years.

Jae 19:19

I feel like the two main kind of takeaways, which are things are so hard that you through your life experience seem to have come through very well at least that like my therapist telling me is like you can't make a change until you know what you want. And then you also have to trust what you want and trust that you know yourself know to know what you want. Because I feel like that's a lot of like what I'm working on and actually taking the Google UX certification right now because someone recommended I try it out because I've always had a very creative side and a very kind of like, logical analytical side and I couldn't I wasn't finding any jobs I like so I'm in the process of doing that right now. And I really like it and it's finally kind of something I wish I had known about in college but i'm i'm glad i can do it now but it's also hard For me to feel like I'm quarterlife crisis, 25 haven't had like a corporate job, I want to buy a house, I want to have a family kind of the joke at 25 is like half your friends are getting drunk on spring break, and the other half are married with a 401k. And kind of trying to feel like you're just navigating that. And it's like, not having a right answer. And living in that. I don't know, space right now feels really hard. And I can definitely negatively talk myself like, well, Jay, why didn't you take this earlier? Why'd you find this? You've been having a year at home, you haven't been working? Like, what can you do? And I think what you're able to do so well is trust that you know what's best for you and know what you want enough. Like you knew Australia, you didn't really know what path was gonna lead you there. But Australia was what you wanted. And therefore you were able to filter all the decisions and trust that that's what you want to do. If I'm under Yeah,

Heather 20:48

and I and I will say like, I did have that oil as a sort of an end goal, in my mind. And, and I will say, even if you don't, even if you're sitting here going, Well, that's really great. And now they're like, that's awesome. But I don't have that, you know, I don't have this one kind of end goal in my mind. Like, that's okay, too. And I think that and hearing you talk as well, and and I, I know that struggle that you're that you're talking about. And you It's so hard to not fall into that comparison trap with everyone else around you that's in your similar age group. And I still do that now. In my 30s, I do the exact same thing, like most people, my age have families and partners and homes, and I'm living a very unconventional life very non traditional path, which is fine with me. But sometimes I'm like, oh, okay, well, well, you know, that's a bit crazy. But it works for me. And it's what I want. And I think if you don't necessarily have a big end goal in your mind, I think what helps maybe take some of the pressure off is to look at everything as an experiment. And to know that it's okay to try something and decide that it doesn't work out and change your mind and do something different. And it's not the end of the world and you haven't failed, all you've done is learned more about yourself and gathered more information so that you can then make a different choice. And it's like you say you're doing a UX course, like I would say a lot of that is like user experience design principles as well. Because when you are creative work, you know, you try something and you learn what works and what doesn't. And then you iterate and you try something new because you tried something to begin with. You learned more in the process. And so then you're able to make another informed decision when you iterate and then you try another version. And it seems like very scary to apply that thinking to your life, because we feel like we're going to run out of time because you're like, Oh, I'm you know, I'm 25 or like I'm whatever age or add on if I do this now what if I spend a year doing it? And then it doesn't work out? Well, then I've wasted all this time. And then what am I going to do? But I think it's kind of changing your mindset a bit to think, no, I didn't waste time at all. And if you didn't try that, would you have always wondered what it was going to be like, you know, and you're still then two years later, you're sitting here, you've done something else. And you went, gosh, I really wish I should have tried that UX course. Or I really wish I should have tried that degree or that program or this different path, you know, and that's why I think it does come to what you were saying, Jay, like trusting yourself. And even if you don't know with 100% certainty, if something's feeling like pulling you in that moment, and it's really speaking to you and really lighting you up, and you're thinking, gosh, I really need to explore this. And it's about curiosity as well, like just continuing to be curious in your life, okay, I want to explore that, I'm going to see what happens and keep checking in with yourself along the way. And if at any point it doesn't feel like it's working out, then you can pause and you can turn around and do something different and don't look at it as a waste of time at all. Because it's all a learning process. And we're so stuck on like, you have to get a degree and you have to stay on that degree in that job and that program. And then if not, it's so much work to go back and change and it doesn't have to be I don't think it doesn't have to be so rigid and so stressful. I know that it is. I feel you. I feel that pain.

Angela 23:49

They're just like branching off of that it made me think so the first episode, or actually no, that's a lie, the second episode of your podcast that I listened to because the first one actually completely made me cry. And then I called Jay and I was like, Why are you bringing this woman on our podcast? She's triggering all these feelings for me, but I don't remember who your guest was. But you guys were talking about the concept of like breaking the good girl stereotype and realigning your views like in terms of viewing like your actions as Yes, prototypes, and like everything that you're doing like it's always something that can be approved upon. And I feel like that's something that people need to hear so much earlier, because I know the first time that that concept the overall idea was brought to me in college and I did not accept it at all. I completely rejected it. I was like, how dare you tell me that I can just go out there and try something out willy nilly whatever. I've worked too hard in school. I've tried for so long to like, get these opportunities and now get this degree and I'm trying to build this life for myself. I can't just like go out there and just Oh, see what happens and then fall back because like because I don't have this Safety Net. But I think it's something that we need to hear. Because we actually, like we do have a safety net, My degree is part of my safety net, like my friends, my family, they're part of my safety net. Like, even if I don't think of that I'm not starting from nothing. And I think that's where we need to like, really push that message. So please, how how do we remember that we're not starting from every time?

Heather 25:25

It's a good question. And I think like To be honest, I still, I still learn, I'm still learning that for myself that process, one phrase that I really like that I say over and over to myself is just, hey, Heather, look how far you've come. And you just pause for a minute, and just remember every thing you've been through, and when I start to get discouraged and feel like, what am I doing? And what have I really accomplished, then I just like, wait a minute, just pause for a minute, look how far you've come like see, you know, even in the last year, in the last six months, and even before that even just the fact that you've got yourself here to this country, and you know, even got yourself to this very place where you are right now in Cannes, Queensland, like the fact that, you know, I came out of lockdown. And then you know, there's just so many different things that experiences that you have that are unique to you. And you're building a really strong foundation for yourselves right now without me, you probably don't even realize it. But the fact that you're even doing this podcast and you're, you know, bringing on guests like me and the other people you've brought on your show, you're you're already demonstrating that you're very curious and open minded about the world and about yourselves. And it's scary, but just you know, trust yourself a little bit. And I think along that whole concept of you know, iterating and prototyping and thinking of your life and your decisions like that. And knowing that once the more that you start to do that, it's almost like proof to yourself, like, hey, okay, I did that thing. I tried that, look at me go whether or not it works out, that's okay. That's all right. And to just start to tell yourself that over and over, like, what we're releasing that pressure from yourself, to know that to think that a definition of success is sort of hedging on being the best at everything, or everything working out perfectly, or this decision, you know, working out completely how you'd expected it to, because it just it doesn't, you know, life has so many twists, you know, plot twists, you know, like a classic Gilmore Girls episode, you know, like, just you're gonna get thrown one thing after another. And the more that you do, the more you sort of step out, I think the more you can prove to yourself that you can trust yourself. And then you keep reminding yourself of that. And I think having friends, people who can hold you where you're at, and support you, and be with you along the journey and be gracious towards you, and with you. And remind you, you know, I've got some beautiful women that I've connected with online over the last year who hold me accountable. And they remind me of that, too. Like, they reflect that back to me when I forget, because I do forget a lot too, like I have to it's like a very conscious, intentional effort to get up every day and remind yourself like, hey, like you are, you've come so far. And just because you're not where you think you should be, doesn't mean you're not right where you should be in this very moment. And it takes a while to get to where you want to be it is it's like the whole concept of in between and kind of feeling your way through it. And the two of you can keep reminding each other, you know, you've got each other and I'm sure you have other friends and support as well, which I think you can't really do it alone, right. So just reflecting back to each other and saying, You got this. And hey, remember, when you did this thing, you are so brave, and you are so strong. And you can do that again, just like that you can keep doing it.

Jae 28:37

I feel like the thing with all of our friends, and I think just in your 20s and through life, but particularly in your 20s being a young adult to an adult adult. Everyone has something positioning, whether it's friends who are getting married, whether it's jobs, so it's trying to find that balance of making sure you're filling your cup and holding the space where your friends need it. Because I think a lot of times, that's kind of where things get messy with friends and just think because it's like there's always trouble trying to make sure that I'm someone who like very much as a writer, die friend like and will hold my friends problems above my own. And what I'm fortunate enough to have learned as young as I have is by doing so I can't be what they need. I can't be what I need for myself. And I think that's definitely something that we torn and something actually that our lovely podcast, Coach Melissa told us in one session that I think I'm gonna get started, Ira Glassman, Ira Glassman, I don't know he he's a speaker of some sort. And she explaining his concept of kind of creative graph thing. And he was explaining how every time you start something, there's this gap between what you like and what you consume in terms of art, whether it be a TV show or something and then there's the where you're starting from doing it's like example like starting a podcast. We all love Brene Browns podcast, but when we want to start a podcast, there's a knowledge gap between those things. And part of being in that in between is realizing, well, yeah, I haven't done the years worth of research for Dave Brown has I don't have all the connections Dax Shepherd has I don't have all of those. But I know why I like their podcasts. And I know what I want to emulate on my podcast, or I have a lot of theater friends know why I like x performance. And I'm gonna take this singing note or that note or something in that and being okay, knowing you're always in the process of closing that gap between you and the expert you're looking up to?

Heather 30:31

Yeah, I? Well, I think it's, I think it's hard for one, obviously, not to keep comparing ourselves to the people who are out there and knowing I mean, they have so many more years and experience and, you know, on us, and and that's okay, we can learn from them, and we can grow from them. And I think I try to look at it instead of feeling like I'm comparing myself or I can never be like Renee or Yeah, I love DAX, DAX, and Monica's style and all these, you know, like, yeah, like you can, but you're not them. You're you. And you can learn from the, you know, I've listened to different podcasts and hosts and I kind of go, oh, should I be like them? Like, maybe I should try that. And I'm just like, wait a minute, is that my style? Is that me? Is that me being authentic, because if I don't show up as authentically me on my podcast, then people are going to know that. So maybe that interview style is more formal. And just because that expert is doing it that way doesn't mean that that's going to work for my show. And for me, because it won't feel right for me, it'll feel forced. And there's nothing wrong with trying different styles and again, experimenting, you know, but if it doesn't feel right, to you, and you can learning from them, and then respecting where you're at now, and just continuing to grow and try new things and not, you know, know that they all started off. I mean, granted, like when Brene was your age, our age, like she wasn't, they probably wasn't podcasting. But the idea that like everyone who got to where they are now, like, they had to start somewhere as well, and they had to learn and to grow. And you know, when she When, when, there, Renee starting her research, or when she was first doing TED Talks, and all this stuff. I mean, it was it was a process for her to learn as well. And so when you think of that, you're just in the beginning stages of that of that growth process. And, you know, the more you keep doing it, and keep putting yourself out there, the more that you will eventually one day you can get to that point, that's okay, that you're not right now, but I feel that way, too. I'm like, I'm great at comparing one thing I wish I could I just think the thing that I've sort of struggled with my entire, like creative life, adult life. It's really tough. When you're talking about friends, too, I guess before that, but if you wanted to talk about that again, as well. Your friendships?

Angela 32:53

Oh, no, I just I I always have I always have the question from my favorite topic. Dating boy boys. How on earth do you? How on earth do you manage like, as an adult, your like personal goals and your professional goals? Because I'm such an over scheduler, I feel like nine times out of 10 I'm always telling someone like, Oh, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Right now. I have work or I need to do something for work, or I need to leave early. Because I have Yeah.

Heather 33:21

Well, I guess what I've learned over the years, because I used to say a lot of those things, oh, I'm busy or Oh, yeah, I have work and all these things. And I'm like, the reality is, Yes, you do. You may have those responsibilities. But what I've learned is that you make you really make time for the things in your life that are important. And you know, whatever. What are your priorities, like, what do you what do you want, and that probably goes back to what we were talking about earlier about knowing yourself and trusting yourself, you know, if work is your priority right now. And that's, that's your priority. And there's nothing wrong with that either. And I think not beating yourself up for wanting work to be a priority or wanting relationships to be a priority. But if you want more of a balance, and you want to have tie, you want to work and you want to have more room in your life for relationships, you know, friendships or romantic interest or whatever it may be, what's your What are you going to prioritize? How can you, you know, you there will be a bit of a trade off. So maybe I can't work late tonight, because I want to go out on a date, or I want to catch up with my friends for dinner. And if that's becoming a priority for you and your life, if that's something that you really want, you know, knowing that you don't have to give up your job, you don't have to give up work, but maybe just that you have to cut back on the amount of hours that you work. And it also could be a matter of examining Okay, why am I working so many hours? And is there some kind of boundary that I need to set in my life with my job? You know, or is there a reason? Why am I working hard because I feel like I need to get ahead or I feel like it's something I should do or I'm feeling obligated or guilty? So I mean, there could be a whole array of things kind of tied in to that. But yeah, you make time for the things you can always figure it out. That's I firmly believe that you can figure out a way to make it work. You can find a balance. Yes, there's trade offs, but what's important to you And hard when you're trying to get ahead, I realize when you're when you're young, and you're like, well, I feel like I need to work 10 hour, 12 hour days to get ahead in my job. But I've worked so many different jobs and throughout my career, and I just think like, is that really worth it? And what's kind of the there's this whole, I think there's like maybe a whole culture shift that probably needs to happen behind that, which probably is a whole different topic, if I'm busting myself that many hours, you know, to work that hard, like, was it? What is it all for? And I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity anyway, and that it's not necessarily I have to work 1012 hour a day at work, because I can still I could actually do much better quality work in a normal amount of time. I don't know your full situation. But yeah, it's just I know that those are some of the pressures that come with trying to find a career and get ahead in a job. And it's it's, again, I do think there's a lot of cultural pressure and expectation, especially in the US. I mean, not that that doesn't exist here in Australia, but there's definitely more of a healthy work life balance here. I would say that the US definitely doesn't promote, at least at least, I don't think so. I mean, it's been a while since I've been there, but I don't think so. Yeah.

Angela 36:10

So I think it's maybe Yeah,

Jae 36:12

the pandemic for some people I know made it better because company because it was harder to get to people. And then some companies that made it worse, because oh, you can check your email. So pivoting more into relationships, friendships, all that kind of thing. What would post college 20 to 25 year old Heather be looking for in a partner that Heather now what differs? Or what's the priority? Right now? Or is it? Is it a different priority? Or if you kind of these are a lot of questions. So answer what a variety would like if you could kind of where you are now look at yourself, then have like, smack yourself on the head with one lesson of like, focus on this or look for this or you don't want or this isn't a red flag, or this is a red flag? What what what kind of those? Oh, my gosh,

Heather 36:59

well, gosh, there's a lot there. Because, yeah, I don't know if you've listened to any of my podcast, I talked about my story a little bit. But I got married when I was 22. And I'm not married anymore. And so I mean, I think that question is pretty relevant for me, because I definitely think Heather now is so much more wise and in tune with herself than 22 year old Heather was, and I don't, I think I've always been pretty mature and self aware. That being said, when I was 22, I didn't don't think I really knew myself as fully as I do now. And I think I felt a lot of pressure, just for culture, and just through the way that I was like in my upbringing to get married young. And that's just kind of what you did. And that's what I saw, all my friends do. And I feel like I don't even really know what I was really looking for at the time. But now, I would say there are certain non negotiables that you need to have in a relationship. And I don't think I realized what those were for me at the time, because I didn't really know myself as well as I do now. And I'm a very active and motivated and driven person. And I would need to be with a partner who is the same, but not so much so that they couldn't make me a priority in their life. Because I do think that a relationship does need to be a priority. And there does need to be a healthy balance of you know, yes, you have a relationship and you have all of your other things. But if you want to have someone in your life, that person does need to be a top priority. I'm struggling now to find someone who's really driven and motivated that actually wants to make a relationship a priority. So I just started like downpouring. So I don't know, I'm recording, but tropical Ray and But yeah, I think that's one of the big things and somebody who's gonna allow me to be my full show up as my whole authentic self, who will enhance my life and not take over it, but allows me to show up as me and can actually hold space for me to be me. And I will do the same. But I wouldn't have been able to articulate that when I got married the first time,

Jae 39:02

I will say you have a bit of an advantage over us being that you have a lot of accents around you. I feel like that must not be hard to be listening to quite frequently. I'm not saying it makes it easier to find someone but like the dates might not be as hard to manage.

Heather 39:17

I mean, I've had my fair share of problems, we'll just say that it's not been very easy. I've got a few pretty recent examples, unfortunately to share, but it's really tough. Like it's really, really hard. And when I was 22 we didn't have dating apps. We barely had smartphones, which makes me sound really really old. Like I promise I'm not that old, like I'm in my 30s but like but still like but things. Technology has changed so rapidly in that time that like now then I you know when my marriage ended I was like, well now what do I do? Like what I've got to use a dating app? No, no thanks.

Jae 39:52

I have a friend who married her college sweetheart. They met their freshman year that she met a little bit before the freshman year. I'm going to orientation and they got married. But they're my age and they never experienced the dating up to because right when those things were coming up is when they got together. So it's definitely there. It's not an age thing. I think it's just like a timing thing. I have relatives who are around my age who never did because yeah, yeah, like right before dating became less taboo. Because originally anyone on Tinder was like, Oh, yeah, on Tinder. They're they're looking for something very specific. And there weren't really dating apps to find a partner there. Yeah, that's even changed over the years.

Heather 40:29

And I know a lot of you who have met on Tinder and have actually found their long term partner or spouse, that's actually the one app I haven't tried. Because I in my mind, it's still a hookup app. But then I keep hearing all these stories of people who've actually met like their serious partner on Tinder. And I'm like, Oh, well, maybe there's something to that. minefield. It's very tough.

Angela 40:48

I mean, definitely try it out. Like I I've only ever went out with one person from Tinder and it didn't work out for us. But he actually turned out to be

Jae 40:57

Yeah, good. And that can happen. Yeah. Miss soulmate after one message. Any questions? Oh, that sounds interesting. I want to hear about

Angela 41:06

that. I have some very high expectations for one person, but I also just tend to get a little overexcited when I reemerge on dating apps. Like I've only been swiping for what a month now.

Jae 41:23

Maybe? I don't know. This is the first time we've been together in person. Since Oh, free pandemic. Oh, she comes over and is like, Oh my god, I have a soulmate. I found a soulmate. And I was like, oh, okay, let cool. In our friendship. One of the boundaries we have is around each other's dating life, just we get a little too entangled in them. So we try to keep the boundaries. So I'm like, Oh, great. And then she Do you want to see him? Like when you're ready. You can tell me about him. And then she shows me and I'm like, you talk you met him two days ago. She Yeah, well, he responded. I'm like, Oh, so he's your soulmate? Because he's continued conversation. Yes, we know this my god that's that's what we're that's our definition of how this is going.

Angela 41:59

No, he was not my soulmate, because he responded he was my soulmate, because he was the one to respond most recently. So is your new soulmate? The next person who responded, replace him?

Heather 42:11

What is the question? I was gonna say? What is your definition of soulmate? Like? Is it is it just related to dating apps? Or is there like a bigger definition of soulmate for you?

Angela 42:21

Oh, no, no, my true definition of soulmate actually comes from vintage Melissa, Joan Hart. Sabrina the Teenage Witch when your soul stones match? Good. Yeah. I'm looking for something a little more. But this this guy seems interesting. He He's, he's very into basketball as a very good. So that's a very good common interest. Yeah. To start with. Yeah. And he's he's actually been polite about it. Like other guys that have responded to my interest in basketball on the app have been a little bit more misogynistic. Yeah, well, yeah. gonna say they like to start an interrogation. But that's just a better way to put it.

Jae 43:00

I feel like the thing with dating apps, which is so hard, I literally thought of like putting on mine, like, tell me your favorite quote, because at least it tells me something about some it gives me something to work off of one of the ones I put one on one of my dating apps, which a few people have answered, and I've screenshotted their answers. They weren't cute, so I'm not with them. But tell me what your favorite TED Talk is. Because I feel like it one I learned something. And I'm a very curious person and to it lets me see what kind of what they think is interesting. But I think the thing with dating up that's so hard. Similarly, kind of all the conversation values like trying to show up as small as you can through four to six

photos, a few questions,

Heather 43:41

it's really really hard and you feel really superficial swiping on people based on virtually no information. I really struggle with it because I'm a very relational one on one person, and it's really hard for me to judge somebody just based on that. I mean, I you learn how to do it pretty quickly, which is kind of sad, you know, because I'm sure some of those people are lovely, they're just not and I think if you're just like you have to like learn a new definition of like attraction like what it means to get you to actually sort of swipe on somebody or agree to start chatting like for me it's it's a fair bit sometimes I'll just get really frustrated and bored and I'll just be like fine you you you you go and then within like a day I've lost interest in pretty much all of them like it's just it takes a lot to hold my attention. I'm very bad at the apps and I will say I have had no success sadly to report whatsoever like I've actually had some very bad experiences including one very recently who was a lot older who I thought was like very gonna be very mature and like pot on my level look like Bernie Bernie brown fan, self development fan, but not quite what I was expecting. Oh, no, it was very, very disappointing. So in their men. Yeah, still working through that one to be honest. So it's very, very like just not did not turn out how I thought it was going to turn out. I was expecting a lot more from someone who was older and more mature. So I'm like, now what here was someone who was like, Yeah, what what? What do you do? It's really tough.

Jae 45:08

I definitely understand that being on apps because like, I'm not trying to tell myself as someone who is super empathetic and kind and does but like i didn't i don't like the superficial like, yes, no, yes, no. And based on this, in our dating episode, what I realized is, by me not doing that I went on many dates during my datathon of men I really wasn't attracted to because I was like, maybe they have a good personality. Yeah, maybe they have a good month, maybe they're kind of their mother, maybe all of these things. And then my therapist thoughtfully, which I could expand on, it should be like a thought, full Whoa, is that those are not her words. But that's the way I'm attributing it to, my therapist kind of said, she'd be like Baskin Robbins, and kind of like, try all the flavors, but do it in the most comfortable way you can. Because the thing for me, she's like, you're giving too many people credit, Angelenos, I went on the second date with someone who I really didn't want to go on a second date with and I was very against the second date, because he was just very much doing the behaviors I didn't appreciate. But my thing was like, well, maybe he was nervous on the first one. So that's my second one. And I was like, I definitely don't like you. And it's just for me, trying to find someone I like is so hard. So knowing that I could be making someone feel that way and that I don't reciprocate. I just feel like an awful human. So then I'm like, well, maybe or I can try and it just like, it's hard. I'm finally getting. I'm finally starting. You do have to

Heather 46:30

make a lot of I don't know if excuses is the right word. But maybe that's what it ends up being like, oh, but maybe because I was doing this with this last guy, as well as like, Oh, well, maybe he's just going through something and it'll get better. And maybe or Yeah, when you're on a date? Oh, yeah, maybe he's just nervous. Or maybe, but you can only do that so long. to a certain point before you kind of like, Okay, well, who am I in this relationship? And what do I want? Am I happy? Am I able to bring my full self to the table? Do I? Am I even interested in this person at all? Like, just fundamentally, level one? Do I even feel attracted to this person? Is there a spark? Like I mean, and if not, I mean, like, yeah, that can grow over time can but I don't know, you kind of have to answer for yourself. Like how much time or effort Are you willing to put in to see if that spark can grow. And sometimes I'm very heart LED and intuitive. And I just kind of feel like I'm going to know within probably the first 10 minutes of meeting somebody whether or not I want to have a second date, or even I'm going to enjoy the rest of this date. And that sounds like a pretty harsh judgment. But for dating, that's what I do. And I've been on I went on when I was living in Melbourne, I went on just I was trying, I was trying different flavors, right? Like your therapist said, like, I was just like, Alright, fine. Like, I guess I have to do this thing, like very begrudgingly. So sure you seem nice enough that I have like a casual drink with great and then like, within 10 minutes, I was like, yeah, now pretty much right away, you know, but then the ones where I think, Oh, this is really something like the last two guys I've had experiences with and then they just turn out to like, just shocking, actually how different they actually end up being and I'm ending I end up being like, What just happened? Like what actually just happened? So Oh, whoa. Emotional catfishes.

Jae 48:10

I feel like the thing which like we're not, especially as women, we're not old enough. First question should be is not does he want to date me? Yeah. Do I want to date him and my entire life until around now? I was told Yes. He liked me. And only recently have I started like, do I want to go on a date with you? And honestly, for most of the guys, I've gone on a date with.

Heather 48:30

Yeah, that's so good. That's definitely the way to approach it.

Jae 48:34

It feels such like a foreign concept, even though it's so simple because my entire life. My friends, high school and the loggers Oh, does he like me? Does? Did he leave a note in my locker? Is he walking me to class? Like, what does he think? Does he like me? What does he mean by this text? And it's ever like them saying like, do you think like, do I like him? It's always especially when it's your friends like, Oh, do you think he likes me? versus the question of like, how much do you like him? Which is the question she

is women?

Heather 49:00

Yeah, I agree. And I do think there is a big shift. Because when I was in high school in grade school, yeah, it was all about that. Like, oh, like, Oh, you tell your best friend like oh, ask him what he thinks about me to see like me. And to be honest, I flat out just put it out there. Now. I'm like, Hey, I like you, or, hey, I'm interested in getting to know you better. But like, where are you at? You know, and generally, I think that seems and I don't think it's a very scary thing. Like I'm, I think for a guy, hey, that would be refreshing to have a woman who knows what she wants and who's honest, but I don't know. But I don't get very I don't have a very high success rate, although I feel better, because then I feel like I've at least put myself out there spoken what I want. And if they don't feel the same way, well, at least I know. And I'm going to walk away and I'm not going to waste my time anymore. So I guess if you consider that, that I don't have to waste invest any more time and I saved myself from getting a broken heart. And I guess that is what could be considered a high success rate. But in terms of someone being like, Yeah, I do like you and I want to get to know you better. I haven't really had that response. But also I think Australian guys are a bit nervous. Not sure what to do with a woman who's a little bit more forward like that I am a still an American. after all.

Jae 50:04

I also saw this statistic that I hope is wrong, Angela back checks all these like, after an IQ score of like 100 points every, like 10 a woman has, she becomes like 20% or something. It might not be that higher that accurate, but it's something there's something to do with like there's a correlation between how smart a woman is and her and like how adaptable she is. I'm like there are men who are willing to date independence, thoughtful and emotionally intelligent women. However, as we're kind of going through this transition phase of times up and kind of learning how to renegotiate and letting men have that openness because one of my favorite things and Brene Browns book, The first one I read, was her explaining how she had one of her main talks and there was a guy and a girl and the girl was like my boyfriend only like me for my body. And he's like, well, that one guys, a jackass. But when I cried to my wife, she had no clue how to handle me know what to do with me like she wanted to leave me because women say they want emotional intimacy, and they want men to do that. And then when men cry or do anything, women are Whoa, like, but like build me a house, they say one thing, and then they just the women aren't encouraging the men to do it. So I also think it's trying to make sure you're really preaching and living and wanting what you're asking for. And I think through talking to you, Heather, I wish I had the trust in myself that you have in yours, career wise, relationship wise, like being so forward. And just like, you know, that one, I think your definition of failure and success are very healthy ones that I'm trying to work towards. But to just knowing kind of that pivoting is pivoting is just life and knowing that it's always a redirection not in this direction, which is kind of where I feel like I'm still trying to like, tell myself, I don't believe it yet. But I tell it to myself,

Heather 51:52

yeah. Oh, look. And I will say it's not like that happens overnight. So I would say I would have spent most of my 20s and early part of my 30s in that same mindset. And I would I honestly think it's really only after a lot of intentional work over the last maybe two, two and a half years, even like so fairly recently that I would have gotten to that point where I, I realized, Hey, I really trust myself. And but but I will say as I was mentioning earlier, a lot of I made a lot of decisions that I that were really scary and that I was really unsure of but I did it and then I started to I think that is what helped me trust myself more and more. I was like, Hey, you can do this. Because you did that you did that thing. You made this hard decision. And it was scary. And you didn't know how it was going to turn out. But something in you said that this is what you should do. So you followed it. And it might not work out the way that you thought it would Exactly. But it still worked out like it's still happened and you still follow this path. And you're in a place now like I'm in a place now where I'm much closer to the life that I imagined for myself than I ever have been. And that that really only happened in the last couple of years, really. And it was about taking risks and trying new things. And yeah, being willing to to learn from it and continuing to be curious. But it definitely in your 20s I I would say to like said even the early part of my 30s I was still trying to work to shake off that cultural pressure expectation norm because when you come when you go through college and you come out of college, I think that that's still very, very fresh. Not that it ever really is. It's still like I was even saying like I still realize I'm very well aware of it. I'm not living a very conventional life. But I just you get to a point where you're like, you know what, I don't actually care anymore, because this is my life and I want to be happy living my life. And if that means I'm going to try things and make choices. And and to be honest, there's been things like I said, this past this last sort of relationship that didn't work out where I actually really stopped, I stopped for a minute and questioned. I was like, Okay, I really trust myself. And I really trusted myself about this particular person in this situation. And and it didn't work out. And I seriously It was like reeling a bit from it. I'm still trying to work out what happened because I really followed my intuition. So then I'm like, Do I not trust myself anymore? Like, did I steer myself wrong? And so I will say that, yes, I trust myself. And there are also times where I question it. And I think you just have to know like, just because you're questioning something or questioning yourself always doesn't mean that's a bad thing that can actually be healthy. As long as you kind of know what your anchor point is. And you can kind of come back to yourself. I think it's okay to have a healthy amount of questioning because then that you reevaluate. Am I where I want to be Yeah, am I not? No? Okay, so what can I do differently to get to where I want to be? So I don't know if that's any help to you. But I guess just to say that, like it takes time and don't beat yourself up because you haven't figured that out or you haven't just woken up to this. Tomorrow you won't wake up and just be like, Yes, I trust myself completely. And I'm 100% okay with trying all these things and not knowing like it is always going to be scary and uncertain and it takes a process of doing it to become more okay with it. Which isn't like it's not like a quick easy answer, I guess. But yeah, yeah. Never.

Jae 54:57

Did you read? Untamed Glennon Doyle's book?

Heather 55:00

Yes, yes. 100%? Yes.

Jae 55:02

Oh, good. So you own it? You've already right? Correct. Okay. Well, she has this one story about her daughter, and oh, yeah, polar bears, oh foot two liter. But I think the end point of the story is, what if all of us who care all of us who are seeming kind of off who are more spirited who are more emotional, we're not the off ones. We're just the ones who are actually realizing the life we're living in kind of like inception, Truman Show we like what if we're just the ones who are really seeing things for what they are, and everyone else's heads are in the sand. And I think looking at things that way has really brought me some comfort of like, when you were bringing up like, what conventional is like, Yeah, but conventional doesn't mean happy. So why are we doing Why are we striving for conventional when we could strive for happy or play, or play? Like, why are we striving to be conventional? And like?

Heather 55:49

It's a great, great, great question, but that's what we're bombarded with. And then when you actually stopped to think, wait a minute, so I was doing the thing that everybody told me I should be doing, but that's not actually making me feel happy or fulfilled in my life. Okay, what does that mean for me? Yeah, what does success look like? For me? What is a fulfilled joyful life? What is getting up in the morning doing something that lights me up look like for me? And okay, great. Well, then, I've got that picture in my mind. So what do I need to do to get there? And then it becomes about just breaking it down into really practical steps like how do I how do I what's like, logically, tangibly, how do I actually get to that point? What can I do what's like the next right step? Which if you're a Disney fan in frozen to Ana sings that song. Love it, Chris. Yeah. And I like when I when I first saw that movie, and she sang that song. I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is speaking to my life right now. And she's just things do do the next right thing on it. And I was like, that is like the theme of my life. I feel like yeah, that's all you do is do the next right thing. If that's if that's all that you really, that helps you like, just do the next right thing. Don't think about 10 steps ahead. What's like the next right? I mean, do think about what you want and your goal. To the point where it's so stressful, and you feel so controlled, and attached to that one outcome that it kind of paralyzes you from trying new things and experimenting,

Angela 57:07

I think over here, we call that attainable goals, which started for me, like post college when I was freaking out because I'd gone through a breakup and I couldn't find the dollar attainable goals came from.

Jae 57:19

No, it's not. So there's no term goals. It's just like in if you are Oh, that's couple goals. Let's whatever. Well, one of Angela's favorite show. Yeah. And I haven't seen it. But she shows me Mindy cowling, and whoever the Dr. weed is, and like the love interest, and I was like, Oh, that's attainable. And here's like, this was my internal mythology theory, white supremacy patriarchy. Like, they're not a very attractive couple. I'm not saying that there are pre they're not as conventionally attractive as a lot of people on tvr. So it was like, oh, they're attainable goals. Like I can be that pretty and date a guy like that, like I could reach that. So that's like how attainable goals who's but are you settling then? Are you settling for your life?

Angela 58:00

No. So it's a way of saying it's almost like your next step. It's like, okay, it's like this is like you're taking one step on the stair, like, don't think about taking like five steps at once. Like, take one and then the next one until you get to that.

Heather 58:16

Yeah, well, and I think that's a really healthy way to look at it. Because the trap that we fall into and like what I this has been so much of my life, what I've worked on as well is like, again, thinking about I know like the big goal that I might be trying to work towards. And I get really overwhelmed because I'm already trying to think 20 steps ahead, when in reality, you're what exactly what you said you should really only be thinking about what's like, again, the next do the next right thing like what's like that immediate stuff that's right in front of you that little bite sized piece. It doesn't have to be this like, I have to do all this today. The things right now I have to like save the entire world right now. It's

like, Okay, well, if

you want to save the world with like, the first thing first, you probably need a really cute outfit. And then you know what I mean? Like you just break it down like that, like that tiny of a piece, you know, if it's going to a new degree program, like researching a school or figuring out what it is you want to do with that degree even do you even need to get a degree? Is there another way to achieve what you want without getting a degree because I think that's actually probably pretty true. Like I don't really believe you need to have a degree to do everything anymore. And I think that's probably a very cultural expectation that's been ingrained in us. Like I could have easily learned how to do graph, I already taught myself how to learn graphic design. When I went to school for it. Most of the intro classes was stuff I had already taught myself how to do and then I was like, Well, what am I even doing here? Like I could have just you know, so that's something to consider. So maybe the goal isn't getting a degree The goal is like what am I actually like, what am I What do I think the degree is going to solve? Like, what purpose will it have? And if there's like another end goal beyond that, like you want to work for a nonprofit or start a nonprofit, what you know, whatever the case may be, do you do I need a degree to do that? Maybe the answer could be yes. Or maybe there's another way there's another solution or another path or maybe you could like volunteer or you connections in that space or I you know, I don't know all the specifics, but potentially just exploring what other paths are out there that don't require, you know, the the kind of, you know, commitment that a degree could be like just just allowing yourself to think outside the box a little bit.

Angela 1:00:10

And I could put this in the show notes or I could just say this now the degree definitely caught me. Yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah, it totally does. Because I did work for a nonprofit for a while. And like it was a was a very fulfilling experience. And I loved it. And that's why I'd love to get back to it. But just some of the things that were presented to me in terms of like, my qualifications, and my education level, like weren't exactly the greatest. So I was like, Oh, I need more like, I should do more. So that way, I can come back to this. But I know it's not necessarily needed, because I worked with like other nonprofits, like on a volunteer basis, and things like that. And I've heard the people's stories about who's running it who the CEOs are, like those VP positions, and none of them have like formal master's degrees, and none of them even have like undergraduate degrees necessarily, and anything related to business management.

Heather 1:00:57

Yeah. Well, that's like,

and there you go like that. If there was say, if it was one person who told you that, like, if it was maybe somebody you worked with, or encountered, who said, Hey, you'd really need to have more experience. I don't know for sure. But let's say it was one person, or even a few people aren't always the expert. And I think it's a it is like you've done, you've gone out and you've done a bit more research. And you've seen that there are other people working in that space, who don't necessarily have a degree, but they're still successful, and they're still doing that work. And so I do think that because I was at that similar mindset, like I said, when I went back to school for graphic design, I was like, Oh, I better get a degree in this because then that means I'm qualified to do this work. And I don't think that's the case anymore. I mean, obviously, like, if you want to be a doctor, or a psychologist, or like there are some jobs for which, yes, you do need to have proper qualifications. But I think probably a lot more careers and jobs now than we think you probably don't like a degree doesn't mean that necessarily you're qualified. I think there are a lot of other paths. It's just about trying to figure out what those paths look like. And it is different. And it's scary. You're right. Like something interesting about that American mindset around having a college degree. And we we get so like you said it is like a fear based thing like, Well, I have to have a degree because the degree means that I can do this work.

Angela 1:02:10

Right? It's it's very interesting.

Jae 1:02:12

I don't think people are ready for this conversation. But I don't think No, I

Heather 1:02:15

don't either. I 100% like if I ever have kids, I would be like, it's okay, if you don't go to college, do what you wanted. I know it sounds really like do what you want to do. But like no, like, seriously, like, I'm here in Australia, and in the UK, Europe, you know, other places. Like they have a totally different mindset about college. And a lot of them they do have they go to college, right? And they are college educated, but a lot of them take gap years and they travel, they spend more time abroad, which is not something I mean, Americans do that. But I don't think it's as highly encouraged. It's Hurry up and get your degree and figure out what you want to do. So you can graduate and start making money and buy your house and have your 2.5 kids and your dog and all that stuff like Oh, yeah.

Angela 1:02:51

Oh, no, actually super fun fact about Australia. Apparently, the country has a really great like paramedic program in college and you can get like some sort of degree in emergency medicine. And they actually supply the United States with a ton of paramedics.

Heather 1:03:06

But I haven't known a few people who have gone through that program, but I didn't know that they supplied the you at least supply the US. That's cool.

Angela 1:03:12

Yeah. So I guess like you guys have so many well trained emergency response wells. Like we've we've started to poach

Heather 1:03:20

Well maybe . That's why I was gonna say I've been hearing on the news that the emergency response times are very slow. And there's actually not enough like emergency responders. So we're taking off I don't know why. But that's been like in the news headlines that there hasn't been

Jae 1:03:34

I mean, that would be just like us. I mean, we took all the COVID vaccine. So this salts I mean, that's true. Yeah, boy, we could really go down a rabbit trail with that, like, what else? Do you really find? Okay, I have a final question to end on unless you have any more useful. Okay, we're all good. Okay, so I could ask you, as a fellow girlfriend, who do you think the father of but I'm going to go this one way, which is Who do you want the father to? Oh,

Heather 1:03:59

that's a really, really strong question to finish on. You know what I have to actually confess I've only ever watched that once, which is crazy for a Gilmore fan, but like it was I think I made it through like one and it wasn't like I kept intending to watch it again. But I was like, Oh, I don't know. It. Just something doesn't feel Gilmore about it.

Angela 1:04:19

I've watched it a few times and every time I think this does not bring me joy. Yeah.

Jae 1:04:25

What would be better to try is go from season six to the revive. Then you're you're finishing Amy Sherman Palladino, which I think is my biggest issue with the revival is it felt like we completely ignored season seven and this is what Amy wanted for season seven to be on. And that was my biggest issue with it is it was like what Rory had was following Obama.

Heather 1:04:48

She had a job and then she was like, they totally kind of hurts her character arc. I was like so Rory. Like she took a step backwards. Like this is not Rory like it just didn't feel like her character. I thought It was strange. I okay, so to answer your question, okay. Well, I mean, I think it's pretty logically Logan's the father, but of course I've always been a just fan. I did like Logan very temporarily. I like to Well, I liked Logan in our favorite episode for which your podcast is named. I liked him for a short period of time and then I just thought he became kind of an ass and so, but I was cheering for him for a while but then just just comes back later on in the show and just acts a lot more like I think the kind of Jess that Rory needs in her life like the kind of person that Rory needs. I'm never 100% totally opposed to Dean I don't even know why he's part of the conversation ever. No, just no no no no on so many levels, but I don't really like their storyline and the revival I don't really like the fact that Logan's like engaged in the glories like on the side I really don't like that.

Jae 1:05:51

Well that goes with one of my favorite conspiracy theories was Angela and I talked about in the intro of another episode, which is their parallel was Rory is actually Christopher and Logan is lorilynn which I love this theory and I can really see the evidence to back it up in the thing. So the fact that Rory is still kind of sleeping with Logan and the rival he's married kinda it's kind of like Chris going in and out on Lorelei where he feels he needs the support so Rory when she's kind of down on her luck goes back to Logan who's in this committed relationship whatever I can completely see the health I've always end will be team Logan I loved his art Logan I loved I thought to me, he was the perfect combination of the other two. Yeah, you're just crying? Oh. Yeah. But after hearing that, I was like, Oh, that's a really interesting thing. Yeah, honestly, the the biggest thing is like race just got so much more annoying. The older I get. Yeah,

Heather 1:06:50

I agree. It is weird watching it back now. Like I still will watch it back for just like when I really need a good feel good comfort nostalgia. But yeah, it's just, it's aged. Okay, but not as well as I probably would have liked and yeah, and then the older you get, you're like, Oh, I don't know about these characters anymore. Like they are a little bit annoying. Sometimes. Like, just get over it. You know, like,

Jae 1:07:12

Marie was told by one person she didn't have to be journalist and drops out. Yeah. And commit the felon. Yeah.

Heather 1:07:19

Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. It's like okay, so yeah, she she doesn't really show a whole lot of resilience, I suppose. And granted, I guess that was like, supposedly a good TV storyline, but also it is a bit disappointing. And then that's why I was disappointed in her character in the revival too, cuz I'm like, that's just not Rory. It's just, I mean, it could be I guess it could be because as we've just talked to spent the last hour and so I'm talking about like, yeah, you go through seasons in life and transitions. And so maybe that was she was just going through a time but something about it just didn't feel right. Well, it's

Jae 1:07:50

like even for as down on her luck as she was we didn't understand why like, Oh my god, I went on the Obama trail and didn't Yeah, I did this and it didn't work. It just like did you do nothing for the last day? I've been waiting to see you. And they apparently this is the second revival once. Oh, they are going to do it. I've heard I've heard their things. Well, I know the other thing that Lauren Graham said, which I absolutely love is she has I mean I don't know whether how exactly this is true. But she says she has a Gilmore denim in all of her contracts that if they ever do anything go more she's always allowed.

Heather 1:08:24

Oh, no way. I that is so good. I'm glad she's so committed. And did you know that Scott Patterson has a podcast by the way?

Jae 1:08:33

I think he's he he's also Oh my god. Also, um, Christopher Hayden was pro insurrection of America. No reason we know. He you knew this there's a reason I never there's a reason I didn't know that he like he tweeted somebody a ton of like good people on both sides after the sexual. Oh, no. We never liked you as a character. Now. I

Heather 1:08:53

don't like I did not bring him back. There's no point in bringing him back. There's just no point. What's he revival? actually don't even remember. Was he in the first one? I can't recall had one. Yeah, I was like very brief, right? No, no, we don't need him.

Angela 1:09:05

But it would be really good because then we could see who like what happens with Rory and the baby and Logan and Jess and all of the things. What really disappointed me about the revival is that it's been what it was 10 years. Gigi should be a teenager now. How does Rory not have a relationship with her?

Heather 1:09:24

Yeah, that's right. Rory is just like often the world really hopefully they can bring some of that back around. If they do a second revival. Like that gives me help. I'm like, okay, maybe it'll be better. Maybe it'll be really good. If they if they bring it back. They talked about it. I think they actually did talk about it on that episode of Scott's podcast. I think there was some talk of it but yeah, it's an it's an interesting podcast. I wasn't sure if I loved it.

Jae 1:09:46

Oh, wait, Heather. I don't know if I ever told you this. My uncle for our podcast launch got us a cameo from Mrs. Kay and it's like a very thorough cameo I'll send it to you.

Angela 1:09:57

It is the best thing ever. Yeah, wait, why have we never posted that? Did we not post it? No. Um,

Jae 1:10:05

I just need to crop the end out. Okay, she did so well and then ends it with your boyfriend Steve. And it was my uncle David Reese. I was like, that was the only part I was a little weird that I had to crop out. But no, we

Heather 1:10:18

know that for sure. That's so awesome. Oh my gosh. Well, there'll be plenty more to talk about with the second revival that happens. So I agree. we'll have you back on. We'll have to dissect it all that would actually be really fun. I would love to do like a reflection on a TV show or series or something because I always have very strong opinions say happy to do it.

Angela 1:10:39

We'd love to have you back

Heather 1:10:40

or pick another show i don't know if i watch all the shows now but there are some shows that I I don't watch much American TV unless it's on like Netflix or Disney plus so Marvel that's one thing I can watch I know a lot oh

Angela 1:10:53

my god maybe we'll have you for our one Division I Gosh. Winter Soldier or slash Loki?

Heather 1:11:01

Yes. I'm very excited for Loki which is in like, what a week or two? Yeah,

Jae 1:11:05

that day? I don't know. I'll see what one does B plus

Angela 1:11:08

they have to trick us because Loki is the trickster God,

Jae 1:11:12

they said that but also they had to change it because they didn't realize it Overwatch was Star Wars and they didn't want to shows battling for the Fridays. Oh, that was just poor planning on there. They're saying it's because of Loki being the time thing which is a great excuse for the mistake that their team all that is clever.

Heather 1:11:27

That is clever. I was wondering why the day changed. I noticed that.

Angela 1:11:30

Thank you so much for joining us, Heather, please come back any time bring us more advice as you bring it in. And we're gonna have so many more questions for you as we keep taking steps, strides, falls leaps, all of those Yes.

Heather 1:11:46

And take them all like embrace them and just don't put too much pressure on yourself. When you do fall. And you'll you'll you'll get back up and you'll learn how to keep doing it over and over take it from someone who has fallen many many times and keeps getting back up. You can do it you have grace for yourself

Jae 1:12:03

and I wish us all a very successful 2020 120 22 dating life

Heather 1:12:08

Oh my gosh, you know let's all let's just speak into existence right now that we can have some all of us can find some success with worthy men.

Angela 1:12:18

I will have a 2021 Outside Lands date who will not leave me in the crowd. Oh, what?

Jae 1:12:23

Okay, yes. That's October. Yeah, I have some time. They're not good. Good job, sweetie. Okay, well, we'll definitely have to have a follow up on that.

Angela 1:12:34

And on that note, thank you for listening to this episode of in Omnia paratus Join us next week. Grab your coffee bowl and don't forget to rate download and follow on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you want to hear about in the comments. Bye

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