Episode 24: Sorry Not Sorry: How, When & Alternatives to “I’m Sorry”

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jae 0:00

I pledge myself to the pod loyal I'll always be a P to start a D at the end and an O sitting in between. Wecome back to In Omnia Paratus. I'm Jae like the letter.

Angela 0:15

And I'm Angela also known as AVO.

Jae 0:17

Angela. I

have a bone to pick with you.

Angela 0:19

Oh no. Okay,\

Jae 0:20

August 20 2020 I have a list of ideas for the podcast of various things I'd like to speak of specifically on August 28 Yeah, that's when I put the notes in my notes out and I haven't touched it so it would give me the current date August 28 2020 4:50pm. Oh right in the past Okay, continue did we think I like I forgot it was 2021 for a while and back now got it in here. I have one of them is plurals are groups such as paper flocks of crows cold calls the sack which came first? The plural or the singular?

Angela 0:54

Do I have to guess no, no, no. Okay. I

Jae 0:57

think the other one I have which somehow three months later you seem to think you thought of were alternatives to saying sorry.

Angela 1:04

Oh my god. Seriously? Yes.

Jae 1:06

I told you this multiple times. I've told you that they thought of this months ago. I could sue me on Would you like to Would you like to leave this episode? No. But I just needed on record that I thought of this and I put this in here on August 28 of 2020. Before you thought of your April episode, oh man, or may

I don't know when this is going up anymore.

Angela 1:26

We've done a lot of recording. It's it's hard to keep the calendar straight now. Jae, I apologize. I'm very sorry. I did not mean to steal your idea.

Jae 1:34

It's fine. It's halfway when you are literally the halfway man.

Angela 1:37

Oh my god.

Jae 1:38

Carry on. Want to throw in a few Devil's advocates while we're at it. Oh, okay, everyone, this will be an interesting episode.

Angela 1:44

So like Jae has alluded to Today we are going to discuss the 10 things we feel that we collectively as human beings should stop apologizing for And apparently, I stole all of this from Jae.

Jae 1:58

Not this article.

Angela 2:00

Not this article, just the concept. So first, this first apology is warranted and necessary. Jae I am very sorry. This idea probably stuck out in my head because I agreed with you and then just decided to live there.

Jae 2:12

I figured we can move on.

Okay and to quickly Google what the word sorry the definition so sorry as an adjective feeling distress, especially through sympathy with someone else's misfortune. Number two, feeling regret or pentenance, continued pentas used as a polite request that someone should repeat something and or that one has failed to hear or understand number three in poor or pitiful state or condition. unpleasant and regrettable, especially on account of incompetence or misbehavior uses an expression to disappoint or regret

Angela 2:43

that was just a strong word back there used as a regret of incompetence form competence,

Unknown Speaker 2:50

and competence and risk behavior. So that's what when you say sorry, the dictionary says you're implying with that word. And that's incredibly heavy. So I was just gonna say one of the reasons that sparked me back in August wanting to speak about this was I saw this thing of why do we apologize for when it was an article or quote as like, we over apologize and train ourselves to be small was kind of the meaning. So the example given was, you're at a big conference, everyone's breaking for lunch, and you reach for a water bottle that someone else reaches for and you say, Oh, sorry, and what this person said, which I half agree with when I think about it, but I kind of more agreed with it in the beginning was you're telling yourself you made a mistake. You're misbehaving. You're repenting for incompetence, you're using it to describe disappointment or regret. Or like all of these things, it's like or you were thirsty, and someone else was thirsty, and it was an accident, but by saying all these things, especially with the definition that we're brought up to know what sorry, means we're instilling that in ourselves when someone else is thirsty, you are thirsty. Why are we saying sorry?

Angela 3:57

Exactly, like how are you to know that you would reach for the same water bottle, reach for the same door handle at the same time, go for the same seat, but never reach for the check, ladies? I think it's one of those things where especially when we're small, it just becomes one of those offhand catchphrases. Like, do you mean like child small or like diceless small child small, okay, it just becomes like the quick catch all phrase for politely saying, Oh, no, you go ahead, when in fact we should just continue to say you go ahead or your turn or I'll take the next one. Somehow all of those became too difficult or they didn't seem like they were polite enough to use instead of sorry,

Jae 4:40

similarly my bad has turned is another synonymous thing that my bad that I wanted a bottle water bottle, or that I was in line before you at Starbucks. Hmm. And not to get too off topic but a big thing I've been learning in books and therapy and everything is like when I'm bad versus I did a bad thing or two different things. So saying like, oh, My bad is like I'm bad versus oops, this happened because then you're not putting that on your character person in this situation, my actions didn't match my intention or my actions didn't match my values or whatever.

Angela 5:11

Today, we would like to empower you all to stop saying sorry, and reclaim some of these other phrases here here. What's our first one? Number one apologizing for asking for help? or asking questions. This can be anything from speaking up in a meeting and saying, oops, sorry, not meeting that's different one, right? This could be anything from asking for someone to help you move something or grab you something from printer in your office or asking how to use Excel on your computer if you're not super Excel savvy. Sorry, guys. I work a lot. So a lot of my questions that are that have been prefaced by sorry, within the last year have been work related. So that is okay, Mike. So here is that sorry, in explain. So what what was your intention behind using the word sorry, because your xR guys blah, blah, blah, what you just said? Oh, well, my intention was to communicate that not all of these are work related instances that can happen when you're asking for help or asking a question, and then you apologize, but this is just the way that my world has revolved for the last 300. And we're gonna go 70 some days, because I stopped keeping count after March 12.

Jae 6:24

Fair, I feel like the thing with that that's difficult is being someone who doesn't want to be seen as a burden or anything. Say, I want to make sure if I am asking for someone's time, I'm acknowledging, hey, I'm taking time away from this. And what do we think is a better alternative to the Hey, sorry about this, but blah, blah, blah, like?

Angela 6:48

No, that's very true. Because we I think that we all want to be cognizant of the things that are going on for other people, particularly when they seem very busy. But at the same time, I think that we were able to show that appreciation by saying something like, Thank you are all grab yours next time.

Jae 7:05

I feel like if it's a tight turnaround, then maybe Sorry, I hate to do this. But like we need this right now. But it's also if it's not something that's needed immediately, this is all situational to like, there are certain situations where you do you should I think, say sorry, but I don't think they all are like, Hey, I know I'm new. Is there some time later today? You can help me with x? And I think you don't need to say sorry, because you don't know it because you're new or you don't have a skill. But I think the sorry comes in when it's like a timely thing. Personally, hey, Angela, sorry to do this. But like, I need you to do this five minutes ago versus Hey, Angela, sometime in the next few days. Can we get around to doing this? Or can you show me this? Right?

There's like a difference. But I think people apologize and both and don't need to apologize in both because I think sorry, is ownership when you're apologizing and saying I'm sorry. It's an ownership thing. And it's whether or not it's something you should own? Is it your fault? no one taught you excel? No, it's not the other person's fault, either. Hey, I'm a little green. Is there any time on your calendar we can put the help me out with this. I know you're very busy. Because for me over apologizing has a greater effect on you giving the apologies and the necessarily the person getting them because it's how you're reflecting and teaching yourself how to think and how to ask for what you want and what you need. And having to feel like you're incompetent, misbehaving, feeling regret, there's that

Angela 8:29

I think that it is a little bit situational too. But you don't necessarily need to feel any of those things. If this is the 20th time that you're asking for the same thing like say, someone's like, Oh, hey, like, Can you show me where to find the pens, but this is the 20th time that they've asked you. Maybe you need a sorry, maybe because then at that point, it's you have to think about like, Well, did the person not show you like, have you been asking them because they haven't made the time for you? Or have you? Are you continuing to ask them because they go and get it for you. They do it for you. Whatever it is, it's I think it's still one of those things where you could probably find a better way to communicate what you're what you're looking for.

Jae 9:10

I agree. Number two

Angela 9:12

No, this is no to plans. No two conversations, no dates declining to give someone your phone number. Oh, yeah, there's there's a lot in this section. So let's start with saying no to plans or the converse, which is wanting time for yourself or not wanting to attend period. This is one that I adamantly Stand by. You should never ever have to apologize for this. But I think that this is one of those areas where it really is a two way street. Do you feel that you need to apologize because you genuinely feel sorry? Or do you feel like you need to apologize or you're being guilt tripped? Because you said no,

Jae 9:50

this one's a trigger for me. And I don't disagree with you, but I think it's much more. I think this one to me is a lot. It can get very angry. nuanced. I think for me kind of the factors are, I don't think people should have to do what they don't want to do. Or if they're tired, they should have every right to do it. But I think it's a few things. It's like in a situation where it's like, Angela, let's go to Disneyland. And you're just like, No, I'm not feeling it. I think you kind of if you would like that relationship with anyone, family friend, significant other to sustain you kind of can't just end it with I'm not feeling it. I don't feel like the state. Can we plan something else? I feel like, if you're saying no, but you would like to keep that relationship going. It can be very vulnerable for someone to try to initiate something and getting shut down never feels great. If you're gonna say no what you've ever had to do. And it's a relationship you plan to sustain. You also need to affirm and show that person you still want a connection or a relationship.

Angela 10:48

Oh, yeah, I agree. So specifically, when it comes to plans for me, new relationships have an 8020 I have to say yes to 80% of the things to indicate my existing interest and goal of a long term established relationship with said person and then 20% of the time, I can say no, after about a year that slips down into 7030. And then at that point, I generally know a person well enough where we can have that conversation where I can say like, hey, if I say no, it's not because I don't want to spend time with you. I'm a person who likes to spend the time with myself. I like to have weekends where I do nothing. See no one that's just who I am. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to see you again. I know that that's very it's very niche. It's very me it's something that I need to have that conversation about but I think also when it comes to not wanting to do something every time that you're busy, and all you can do is just fire off like a quick like Oh, sorry, like I can't this weekend should not need to be followed up at a later date with Oh, but let's do it this next weekend. Because what if you just don't want to do it? What if I did not like Disneyland for preference? I love Disneyland. But what if I didn't like

it?

Jae 11:58

Then you should say like, disneyland is not my thing. Can we do something else? I think it needs to be clear. Some people in life I am one of those very difficult I with rejection. I have attachment issues. I have abandonment issues. We know this so for me, and it's what I need to work on on my side. It feels very personal. But if you're someone a friend, a significant other, someone who wants to sustain a relationship with me, I need some sort of affirmation that it's I don't like Disneyland, but like let's do something else. Like I know you have brunch Island friends, like let's go get brunch sometime soon. And then if I am what feels like rejection, which I know is my own to work on and I say okay, you don't want to do Disneyland. That's fine. Pick a date. Let's go to brunch and each but yeah, sometimes we'll get brunch that feels still feels like I need a concrete. I can't do brunch this weekend. But let's make a plan, even if it's like a little bit out that you would like on a time and a date to make time and space.

Angela 12:51

Okay, so I can see that. But for me, where that gets a little difficult is the whole idea of changing plans. Because if I'm asking if you want to go to a specific place or do something, it's because I would like to go there or do that activity. If you then counter and say, Oh, no, but I'll do this to me. That sounds like my plan wasn't good enough. So then okay,

Jae 13:14

but go back to the Disneyland Yes. You just don't want to go to Disneyland with me. What do you say? cuz I'd rather you can't like I'd rather say like

Angela 13:21

Oh, sorry, I don't I'm not a fan of Disneyland. And then I said sorry. Oh, like I'm not a fan of Disneyland. Sorry. I missed you. I don't know. Yes. Again. There's a sorry I okay. I am an over apologizer guys. But here's the thing. I don't necessarily agree with any of the reasons that they list for my over apologizing in various articles.

Jae 13:41

Disneyland's not my thing. I'd love to spend time with you. Is there anything else we could do together? Or is anything else you fine if you don't want it to be changed plans? We'll flip it Angela asked me to go

Angela 13:51

see I think that just by saying sorry. I'm not of that. I think that just by saying oh, I'm not really into Disneyland is should be enough to indicate that I just don't want to go to Disneyland. Not that I don't want to see you.

Jae 14:06

But then make another plan with me.

Angela 14:07

Oh, yeah, I will totally make another plan with you. I will not immediately follow your plan with a counter plan. Because to me, that's like, I'm trying to replace your plan. Because if you want to go to Disneyland, I want you to go to Disneyland. And I will see you the next weekend or the next month or whenever we have the next time to see each other but I'm not trying to take over your Disneyland weekend.

Jae 14:28

I see a counterpoint of you being like hey, I want to go to Disneyland and you being like hey, I want to go to the zoo. It's like Okay, wait like Why? Why are we saying for me it's all about like communicating or reason like if it's just like I don't want to go to Disneyland but like I want to go to the zoo. I think it's not about one plane being more or less important or valid than the other for me it's the thing of like, I want the confirmation that I mean in your eyes. Okay, let's flip the design you want you want me to go to I want to get go to Disneyland. I don't like Disneyland. What if I said to you, hey, Angela, I don't love Disneyland Is there anything else you'd let you do, maybe we could try together because then it's still in your court to pick a new activity. And I just express I don't like Disneyland.

Angela 15:06

That is an acceptable response. But I still feel like it kind of goes into the territory of trying to change plans.

Jae 15:13

But you can still go to Disneyland. Like, I'm not stopping you from going to Disneyland that weekend. I'm just saying, Is there another time on all right, do I need to be more specific? Hey, Angela, I don't want to go to Disneyland. But is there another weekend of a different activity? You would like us to try it together?

Angela 15:26

I would I would go more with Hey, like, I don't want to go to Disneyland. Can I see you when you get back? Because to me, then that leaves it open for the two of us to agree on an activity. Either you propose it or I propose it. But it's just that the indication of interest has been reciprocated?

Jae 15:43

Yeah, this is where we're different. I want to specific activity, I want to know exactly what you want to replace and or change out the plan with

Angela 15:49

See, and I know that this definitely French all over again. See, and I know that this specifically comes from times when I have proposed plans, and then someone else has said, Oh, but this restaurant is better, or this movie is better. This place is more fun. And then I'm just like, well, that's not what I wanted to do. Like I've never been here, I would like to see that movie. I would like to try this

Jae 16:12

see and in situations where I've been in that not with you, but with other people. I'm just like, we can do that next time. But this is what's proposed now. So you can come or not come.

Angela 16:20

I have actually started doing that. And it's working. I feel powerful. Thank you for that.

Jae 16:25

When wonder when I propose that and told you that was an option. 2019 I can tell you because that's when I first tried it. I'm like I've been doing it since high school hop on hop off. And the thing is like, Yes, I have control issues. And I've gotten better wedding Angela make plans and other people I will say I used to be kind of a thing that I had many people tell me Well, do you give off for other people opportunities to make plans. It's like, well, like one weekend out of three, I made plans in advance. I didn't make a plan.

So I realized if I want other people to propose plans to do things, I need to give them space to do that as well. But I'm very extroverted. If I could be seeing people every weekend and doing anything from getting drunk at brunch to a wine taste. It's not all alcohol related. Just that's what's yours. It's been a year I want to do things with friends as much as possible. And when everyone is not like me making a plan every single weekend for me, it's about like a one to three. So for every four weekends in a month, I want one at home and I want for to be doing something at least one day. That would be my ideal schedule. That'd be my ideal socialization schedule. Like one one weekend completely free and then the other three weekends doing something Saturday or Sunday, that'd be my preferable schedule.

Angela 17:39

I'm exhausted just listening to that.

Jae 17:42

Yeah, so that's what I would like I don't need I like it sometimes. But also I've had a year of being I'm like Lucy Camden, I've had a year all by myself alone camp and I'm ready to socialize even more than ever. Oh my Lord, if only we could get you into loungewear we get the perfect picture. No. Okay. All right, number three.

Angela 18:01

Oh, are we just skipping over conversations and dates are okay, how do you feel about saying no to conversations and date?

Jae 18:07

I think oh my god, there's this TicTok going viral. Like you can still be polite to men who are just here's the thing, I think,

Angela 18:13

I don't know if they like you.

Jae 18:14

I think it's situational. I think I think this can be a whole episode in itself. So we do you have a timer on your end of the clock? all the time? I do. Yeah. Okay, at 28 minutes. I don't know what how are you trying to get a minute to talk about this and then we have to move on. Okay. Okay. Or do we do 30 seconds? 30 seconds and then Okay, let's do 30 and 30? Okay, you get your first 30 and seven. I'm like Friday for my car. 54321.

Angela 18:37

Okay, so I believe that you should be able to say no, or opt out of any conversation where you feel uncomfortable, particularly if these are conversations with strangers who decide that they want to strike a conversation up with you on the bus, outside of your office at a restaurant bar, wherever. If someone's talking about something that makes you feel uncomfortable, you should fully be able to excuse yourself or deflect and not have them demand to give you a reason of why you're walking away or why you would like to change the subject or not discuss what they're talking about. Some people like to prop

Jae 19:10

30 seconds is up

Angela 19:11

. Dang it.

Jae 19:12

Okay, we'll get the clock. Like literally, that's why we have the clock. I know. Okay, go. I agree with Angela in the sense of you should be able to opt out of anything. You're uncomfortable with strangers, especially with heterosexual like men. They're taller, they're bigger. I get it. I think started out being courteous and human. Like Don't be a Don't be asshole. But if it's not dressing, and it's clearly there are not hens giving me Be strong. And that's something you have to apologize for when you're taking your safety and your well being into consideration first. But again, don't start off like swinging start off with a stern response. Like, no thank you. And if it continues to progress, you have every right to go because you're just getting larger. You're like a bear. You're standing in front of a bear and you're not moving don't budge cool for dates

Angela 19:52

start me up to 40 to say no on dates or for dates. No for dates go

if someone asks you on a date, whether you know them or they're stranger, I think that you should be able to say no at any time without someone demanding a reason again, because you should just be able to say no, you shouldn't have to say like, oh, next time or I am going to give you my number like just to be polite or something like that. I think that it's fully within your wheelhouse to exercise your own autonomy and decide who you want to have the ability to communicate with you hire information.

Jae 20:21

Okay, I agree with you. I think though the other side of that, though, is asking someone to date is a very vulnerable thing. And I think, again, don't do anything you don't want to put yourself in, but also have a show, acknowledge and also acknowledge the bravery. But like, take some time, think of how it would be if you were sewn on a date and the way you would like to be rejected, I think you should try to acknowledge the human element and that they're trying something and you've ever say no, and if they get aggressive, don't budge. But I think we need to honor the vulnerability and try to be a polite person.

Angela 20:53

Oh, completely by no means Don't be a jerk. Don't automatically just say like a Oh, no, that's gross. But you also shouldn't have to have a between 10 to one hour conversation with a man describing why you don't want to hang out with him. This Oh, my God just happened to me in a bar once where this guy literally would not leave my table. And I was waiting for a friend. So and I got there early. So for 30 minutes, he just kept asking, like, Well, why? Why don't you want to go out with me? Like, Is it because of this? Is it because of that? I think he he almost took his shirt off. At one point. It was very weird. He was just like, I don't understand. He's like, Is it my body? How am I in this situation right now? Yeah, that's not yours. Okay, all right.

Jae 21:36

Number three out of 10.

Angela 21:38

Yes. Number three, having feelings, whether you will absolutely agree whether you're happy, sad, angry, whatever. Any feeling that you have has a right to be expressed at any moment. It's just that I think where people get upset or like weird about this is the size of your emotions. Like sometimes people get really upset when you're really happy. And I don't I don't think that that's okay. Like, you shouldn't have to apologize for being really happy for smiling for laughing for sounding chipper like people were like, God, you're just so happy. It's like, Oh, sorry. Like, I didn't mean for, like my friends to encroach on you.

Jae 22:14

Like, I think that's I think that's a double ended one though. Okay, how's that? For example, by the time this comes out, I will be fully vaccinated from COVID fortunately, or as vaccinated as one can be yes, if you and I were hanging out when I got this news, and I started crying and planning trips and doing everything around you, because I was just so excited. And you then got upset by that. You also can't be you can't you have to let the other person have their feelings as well. Yes, neither person should have to apologize. But it's also not like someone else having feelings is not taking away your feelings.

Angela 22:51

But also like but I think someone, someone asking you to hold in your feelings or express them in a way that is comfortable for them. I don't think you should have to apologize

for that. Oh, I

Jae 23:02

agree. I just think like in the example I was giving, like, if you got really upset and I was like Angela like this is my like, no, or if it was the other way around, or something like you're going on vacation with your big and I was jealous and I was like you were really happy. And I was kind of not rude. But I was like, I got like I started crying. Both need to be able to exist in a relationship. And neither one should be sorry about that. Like I should be. I'm sorry. I'm like, I'm sad. I'm not planning a trip. But it's like, I don't need to apologize. But it's also like work on holding space for yourself and for the person you're interacting with. who's having feelings?

Angela 23:36

Yes, coexistence. It's

Jae 23:38

number four

Angela 23:39

for your eating habits. This is everything from being hungry wanting a second helping following a specific diet hmm whatever your eating habits are there your eating habits you chose them for yourself. It's how you live your life they're not necessarily impacting another person. I will say that this gets a little bit complicated when people decide to then try to impose their eating habits on other people who do not follow the same I don't think that that's okay.

Jae 24:07

Okay, I have two things about this one eat the way you want to eat known as are to judge you. If you have a very specific diet and or regiment of things you need to actively be looking for those restaurants. It's not my responsibility to find foods to accommodate every single one of your either preferences or allergies, both are valid, but it's not my job to always look for those. I'm going to do the best I can. But if the restaurant has have three options for you, and you want more, you need to do the work and try to find restaurants that accommodate whatever your food things are.

Angela 24:35

Exactly. I agree. For example, I have a shellfish allergy, but it's my choice whether or not I want to be accommodating and go to dinner with my friends at a sushi restaurant and then I know that I'm only eating rice or teriyaki chicken. Well they have sushi. That's my decision. It's not up for me to say, Hey, I can't eat anything here. We need to find another restaurant

Jae 24:57

and I think vice versa if hypothetical at all. Your friends only ever wanted to eat sushi, right? It's not your job to be a guy. I'm allergic to shellfish Think about it. It's like it would be to me it's like you were you can also be Hey guys, I found this great restaurant with your accommodations. Can we try this restaurant instead, since we've gone to sushi so much, it's about being a respectful person, respect your friends respect, know what your friends food allergies and or preferences are.

Angela 25:26

Exactly. So for example, I'm a part of a vegan supper club. I'm not a vegan, but a lot of my friends are, thank God. And like this is my way of being respectful to their food choices. And it's a way for us to spend time together and I try something new. And I find restaurants that I really like. And I'm also not the only non vegan and this vegan supper club number 546. Number five, not replying to calls or texts immediately. I'm also going to throw emails in there as well, because this is something that has come up for me at work recently, because all I do is work, I get an email, then within five minutes, I get a phone call. If I don't answer the phone call, I get a voicemail, then an another five minutes I get a text message asking if I've seen the email the call or the voicemail and then someone else will then reach out to me 10 minutes later and say, Hey, so and so couldn't get ahold of you. Did you see any of their messages? Yes, I was responding to their email within that 10 minutes.

Jae 26:26

I feel like work is a little different. But maybe you have a rebuttal to that. I feel like if you're on the clock, I mean, if you're working on it, then they're being a dick. But I think it's one thing if I text you and like I'm not going to text you back to that thing of like work wants to get a hold of you and like you're not responding.

Angela 26:40

Oh yeah, completely. Here's the thing. If you call email, text, whatever, I think that you should do one of those things once in a work scenario, and only use all of those other options. If it's absolutely imperative that you get a hold of me at that moment. If you just want to make sure that I received your email. There's no need to do the rest of that because I think that I should have that's fine, like 20 minutes to be able to respond to your email. Oh, no, someone someone emailed me and asked if I could buy someone else pens and then called four times left a voicemail sent to follow up emails and a text message all within a one hour period while I was in a meeting. I'll get to it later. Yeah, that's what I said. But it was like No, I was like I'm in a meeting right now. I will address this at like 11am when I'm out of the meeting.

Jae 27:29

Yeah, I think social is different I personally again very weird I don't love it. I think the most awkward thing and I think this is just in general what munications like I'm texting Angela and we're going back and forth for like 20 minutes and then like she just drops off it's a little bit like what and like again not entitled timeout but it's also weird because you don't want to say goodbye like that was a big thing in middle school like making sure you said goodbye and Hello every time you would text someone I think we dropped that because we but I think it's definitely a thing of like oh my god right I don't know. I think I agree with this one. I think no one's entitled to your response. But again, be respectful

Angela 28:01

here but also Don't be a jerk and leave someone on red for three days if they require a response

Jae 28:06

number six

Angela 28:07

speaking your mind this is having an opinion speaking up speaking out having a difficult conversation. None of this should be prefaced or ended with a sorry.

Jae 28:18

Oh, okay. Yes. And I think there is a time for a sorry, when speaking up I think it's like or not, I guess it doesn't necessarily need to be a sorry, but it's like, I am gonna, I'm aware and I hope Angeles too. We are not black indigenous people roaming the record

Angela 28:36

we're not

Jae 28:37

so when we speak on these issues. I think there needs to be a very clear stance of not I'm sorry, I'm speaking about this or I'm sorry, I feel this way but it's like I acknowledge my position my in general I adopt prepositions of privileges and I acknowledge what I acknowledge my feelings are valid and I'm going to make my statement and I'm more than happy and willing to get feedback and change my opinions with more information. It's longer but I think that's what needs to be said in place of sorry, because I don't think you need to apologize I'm sorry to x y&z community but I think it's things like I'm aware of where I'm coming from and I would be more than happy to continue and or change your opinion based on new facts given

I accept this one now.

Angela 29:13

I think what I accept my answer except

what they said your answer

got it. I accept this one. I think that the way that I think of it is more when you have a tough conversation to bring up you don't you do not need to apologize for someone else's uncomfortability

Jae 29:29

I think we need to think of different words because like if I have something hard to bring up with you, I want to preface the being like hey, like I know this is going to be hard or something as a you you want to preface it with something but I don't necessarily i agree i don't think sorry is necessarily the correct term but I think prefacing it, it feels better to preface it.

Angela 29:45

Yeah, don't hit people out of left field. That's not nice. Number seven, taking time off of work. This is anything from like taking your vacation time or taking

Jae 29:56

me you're from America without telling me you are from America

Angela 30:00

American ever taking sick days,

Jae 30:01

take your sick days, take all your PTO, you're entitled to it.

Angela 30:04

You should not feel pressured to not take a vacation or go into work. If you have a fever, it makes no sense. Because then Okay, I've never understood going into work when you're sick, because then you're more likely to then pass your germs to other people in the office, and then you get the whole office sick and how is anyone in the office appreciative of that? Because then all of their productivity is slowing down and everybody has to work while they're sick. Yeah,

Jae 30:28

but people aren't looking at the greater productivity because if they were our workdays would be significantly shorter.

Angela 30:33

Oh, that would be glorious. I think that I think my sweet spot is working 9am to 3pm I would just take that an hour earlier.

Jae 30:41

Okay, like 830 to 238 to 430.

We're always like my favorite shifts to have because I can always make dinner plans or do things after with enough time to relax, but I was getting up early, so I felt productive with my day. But yes, take your time off in the words of the now felon and or criminal Abby Lee Miller, everyone is replaceable. So take your time

Angela 31:01

Exactly. Number eight, being afraid, who I think is a personal one, like you need to personally work on that because it isn't something you should be apologizing for. No, I think whether it's a rational fear and irrational fear, I think that that's something that you have to work on. But other people should also be respectful of the space that you need to work on that here here. Number nine, your achievements never apologize for your achievements, your degrees, your promotions, any sort of honors that you win. Like if you're don't apologize for that. Don't let anyone ever like make you feel small, or it's insignificant. It's all a really big deal because you achieved something

Jae 31:46

that's a toughy

Angela 31:47

Oh, are you talking about the idea of participation awards and things like that?

Jae 31:50

No. Like, it's just tough for me to own and feel worthy of my achievements, because my achievements always feel like not undeserved titles. But when you hear someone with a title or you hear something and then I feel what I actually am, it feels like there's a disconnect.

Angela 32:05

Oh, I fully agree there. I have the same thing. I downplay a lot of them. I actually have a really hard time accepting thanks as well, whenever people tell me thank you like I cringe.

Jae 32:16

Oh, I love being told. Thank you.

Angela 32:17

I can use my God. Yeah, I'm always just like, Oh, yeah, no, that's what I was supposed to do. Cool. Bye.

Jae 32:21

I think this is not nearly the same award talking about what kind of similarly in the Megan Markel interview, she uses the quote, like you're judged off the perception, but you're living the reality. And that's how I feel with achievements. The only one I can kind of think of right now is like I made it into the Grieg honor society at college and like, it's like, oh, wow, oh, no, let me change this. Recently. I was fortunate enough because of another person in the podcasting class we talked to be featured in an article 30 Asian American podcasts you should listen to. That's pretty cool. And it's really

Angela 32:51

cool.

Jae 32:52

Yes, thank you. And Angela, assisted and or ghost read a lovely paragraph for me. When people hear that one of my uncle's Oh, wow. Like one of 30. And it's the thing, it wasn't like they took the they rounded up every Asian podcaster and ranked us it was just because she happened. I happen to know the person which I guess is how most things work in the world, which is odd to think about, but it's like the perception of being one of 30 was like a big deal. And for me, it's like we have like the least amount of Instagram followers on the thing. Like it felt odd. It's not not something to be proud of. But it felt like something grander than what I am. So it's hard to not feel like awkward in yourself. We're working on I'm working on it. Me and my personalities are working. You know,

Angela 33:30

I definitely understand that. And I think as far as you're one of 30 goes Yes, it is about who you know, but at the same time, this person felt that you were a person that they knew who was notable enough for other people to be aware of and look out for. Number 10 is how you look or your appearance, your hair, your clothes, your makeup. I do this one a lot. I very often apologize for my hair. I'm like, Oh, sorry. It's a mess today. Sorry, it got wet. Sorry, I had no time to do it. I haven't had a haircut and forever Sorry, I think it's one of those weird ones that goes into the idea of what is generally respectable what meets society or cultural norms. What what matches the style of your friends even complicated.

Jae 34:17

I feel like I'm on the opposite end of that where I always get hold of god you're overdressed. Sorry, I don't take like

Angela 34:24

we rebranded you as over prepared a few episodes ago.

Jae 34:28

God, it's the same thing of like, why does how I dress have any impact on the way you dress?

Angela 34:34

Exactly. I think it's one of those things that goes both ways. We have a lot of feelings about both of them. And we we really don't need to have any feeling on it because it just is what it is. I know like to me personally, I might feel like I'm having a bad day that doesn't necessarily see that the world feels me that the world sees me as having a bad day. I feel like I rolled out of bed threw on whatever I could find listed my hair up and went out with no makeup. I feel like I look gross. That does not mean that I am gross

Jae 35:07

here here. I also think that why are we I think this kind of goes into everything kind of dismantling and unlearning everything. Why if I look like a 10 Why does that automatically make you are five?

Angela 35:19

Exactly we need to remember is that like all of this stuff exists independently from each other, and we should celebrate each other and uplift, you're here.

Jae 35:27

That was number 10. Yep, that is number 10. So I feel like if we were to give three or two Well, if I were to give two words to sum up this list, it's crap. I had it a few years ago. It's Ah, oh, it's respect and affirm, I think is what I was gonna go with. I like those respect, no, sure I don't, but it's kind of like always be respectful and you don't have to and try to assure or stand in your power but also be be respectful of the situation you're entering. And like acknowledge, didn't acknowledge or stay there. I think it's respecting acknowledge, acknowledge the other person and do it respectfully

Angela 36:00

good rule of thumb, if you're being respectful, you you most likely will not need to apologize.

Jae 36:05

I was pulling up these articles of like, stop apologizing. 10 alternatives to say, and I remember this one, I told Angela and she gave me an example that squash this one immediately, which is find a way to say thank you. So it sounds like so when I'm willing to brunch Jae when hearing thank you for what? You say thank you for waiting. Absolutely. I want an apology. I want you to grovel, I want you to comp my food. Absolutely not. So I think there are some situations where Thank you are are appropriate. But like not it's it's not as many as you would think. And I think first one was actions, not words. I'm an action person. But I do think it takes something to admit out loud, something I I've been watching the Morning Show on Apple TV. And something that Reese Witherspoon said to Jennifer Aniston's character that I think could be used on a lot of situations. I know you and I had talked about like that. Sometimes you should be saying sorry. And there are plenty of uses, which we can go into when you should be apologizing. But she said something like that sounds like a heavy weight you're carrying, I hear that you're carrying a lot, which I think is a great alternative to sorry, in terms of sadness, or anything like there's a lot on, I can tell there's a lot on your heart. But like I can see that you're carrying a lot right now, I think is another wonderful way of not having to say I'm sorry, of x.

Angela 37:12

I like that one. I also thank you for listening, I think excuse me is just another one that really needs to make a comeback. Like anytime that you bump into someone knock something over something like that, excuse me works. You don't need to say you're sorry if it's an accident, things like that. If you intentionally going out, I don't know what's a good example here. If you were intentionally barreling your way down the street, because you were late to catch the bus and you bump into someone and knock them over say sorry, say sorry, if you accidentally like jostle someone because like you trip like to say like, oh, excuse me. Yeah, I know, before we did this episode, you had a thing. We're not to bring up up.

Jae 37:51

But you really were like, people need to stop telling me I can't apologize.

Angela 37:56

Oh, I still agree with that. I fully believe that it's condescending if someone is if someone has said sorry, to you, like, say with the water bottle example, if you reach for the same one. And like the other person says like, oh, sorry, and then grabs the next one. It's kind of condescending for you to be like, what are you sorry for? Or you don't need to say sorry, to me, that feels very rude. I think it's another thing if you're having a conversation with someone, and they're pressing something to you, and sorry, is coming up, like say like, oh, like, you know, you really don't need to be sorry, like I understand or like if you're trying or if you're the person if you are the person who is saying sorry for reaching for that water bottle or sorry that they had a bad day, or I'm sorry to hear that your dog died. None of those things, you were not directly related to any of those things. So you have nothing to be sorry for. But it is a way of expressing sympathy. So don't attack someone for trying to express their sympathy.

Jae 38:52

But what if you're trying to like let's say you and I reached for the water bottle, and I want to be like no girl, like you don't need to put like trying to help. I mean, I guess you just don't help. It's like the pilot. Like no need to apologize. Like we're good. Yeah. Like I'd say like, oh, like no need to apologize. Or I'd say like, oh, excuse me, because I think that that's a way by leading that's a way to lead by example. But like, give, okay, do what enact Okay, we're reaching, we're reaching for a water bottle. Oops, sorry, didn't you see you? No worries, excuse me, but then you're both kind of owning it when neither of you should be owning it? No,

Angela 39:24

no, not necessarily. No, no worries, excuse me, I've grabbed the water bottle, I can grab the water bottle and hand it to you I can grab a different water bottle. I think it is just all about the actions that you're following up with. Because generally when we say sorry, we then reach back into ourselves and we hold on but by extending out to another person, you're kind of opening that back up. And it's it's not this like strange interaction anymore, because I think that when people like clench back up, it's a trigger. It's almost like a fear response. So by opening up to them, you're helping retrain their brain to make interactions a little less fearful, a little less filled.

Jae 40:03

I agree. I don't love the What are you apologizing for? But I do think the oh no need to apologize. I hear hear. Oh, no need to say sorry. Like, I think the What are you apologizing for is different than the Oh, no need to apologize because I think hearing that also affirms me. You're right. This isn't a situation that I have to apologize for. Personally

Angela 40:20

, I agree. And I think that just especially depending upon the way that things are set up, if there's a power dynamic involved, or the type of situation, sometimes it can only make the person apologizing, like feel more uncomfortable, like I know, in my very first job, I like didn't understand how to clock in. So I was five minutes late when I reported to my manager for training. So I got there and said, Oh, I'm I'm so sorry, I had trouble with the punch machine. I was like I this won't happen again. And then she then proceeded to yell at me for 10 minutes for being late. And I then said sorry, again. And then she was like, stop apologizing. You sound so weak. Get out of here. I apologized once you didn't let it go. You said the same. She essentially received repeated the same five sentences over and over again. So it felt as if I needed to say more. But she didn't want to hear me say more. She just wanted to continue to yell at me. So it's really awkward because situations like that often happen personally, particularly when there are power dynamics involved. Like I know I've been in other situations where things like that have happened. And I've tried to go the route of not apologizing to say like, Oh, thanks for catching that. Or, oh, like I will be sure to do that next time. But the conversation has continued until I've actually said the words I'm sorry. So I think that as people we also need to be cognizant of the way that we are addressing certain situations because if you're specifically looking for the words, I'm sorry, think about why you're asking for someone to apologize to you.

Jae 41:57

Definitely that's what I was gonna say my favorite new I don't wanna say toy because laundry phrase things I've been working with recommend to me is the Serenity Prayer, which I'm sure most people have heard, if not, it's heard referenced. It's the one that they use in a al anon. And I think for people with anxiety, depression and or control issues, all of which I have, it's just kind of a good reminder. So whenever kind of a situation arises, it's like break it down, especially when you're apologizing for a past action. It can't chain. Angela, give me a scenario. Any scenario.

Angela 42:29

Um, well, any Oh, no, not me. No, no. I invite you to go to the movies. But then you forget. Okay, I'm standing outside the theater waiting for you to arrive. And then about 30 minutes now. Okay. So like

Jae 42:43

walk through the Serenity Prayer. I've realized like I'm running late. I get there. So the first thing except the things I cannot change, I can't change the fact that I'm late. I can't go back in time. I don't have a watch. I don't have a time turner. Pym Particles. I don't have anything to do. We can't we can't do anything. Yes, the courage to change things I can I can make amends. I can acknowledge like, Oh my gosh, I here's the thing that I don't like and apologies of when people put it on something else, like my alarm didn't go off whatever happened. Because for me that that intent versus impact thing of like, I get shit happens, but like the result is Angela waiting outside the movie theater for 30 minutes. So it's a thing of like, I'm trying to think of what I would like to hear in that situation. See, and that is hard to identify. Because generally, when we think about these things, we're just like,

Angela 43:24

Oh, I'm looking for an apology, or like I'm looking for acknowledgement, but those are those are two separate things.

Jae 43:30

Maybe instead of like, I'm sorry, it's like, I know. I mean, maybe it is the thing is like I know I thank you, I know I kept you waiting, I realize I'm running late, okay, for me when it comes to time more than the apology I want the acknowledgement that which may or may not be right of me to want and still working on it is the acknowledgement of Yeah, because I guess here's the problem where it's an internal and an extra thing of the I feel like when someone's laid on me, my time was not valuable enough for you to get there on time for you to do that. But really, it has nothing to do with me when someone else runs late. It really doesn't. And so what's the thing of figuring out how within myself to it's like making an apology and an amends with myself

Angela 44:13

Oh, that's interesting,

Jae 44:14

because I need to realize like this was an activity in one of the books I was reading, and it's very interesting. It was like Okay, take us and take a situation of like why you're annoyed with your friend So for this example we'll use Angela because I don't want to talk about any we could talk about anyone else without their consent. Angela runs late and so it's kind of like they're okay write down the thing that bothers you most about a person and then write about everything you'd lose if they were no longer in your will and see if that balances out. And then wait that thing. I know that for a boundary that Angela and I put in place pre pandemic with branches I would not leave my house until I got a confirmation. Angela was in the correct city for brunch. Angela was in the city in which brunch was being Yeah, I would not leave my house because I knew I was closer and I knew that shit happens whether it's her whether she didn't have Whether it happened unintentionally should happen, and I was tired of getting to restaurants and waiting 2030 minutes for her and or other friends, those I just drew that line. So it didn't. So I was no longer in that situation. So the no one would need to apologize because it's like, Hey, I don't want this to build up between us. Here's what I need to be comfortable going forward. And if you're uncomfortable with that, what can we What's another solution so that we can both get our needs met here. So you're not overly apologizing and or having to apologize. And I'm not holding resentment for not getting an apology for something that can't be controlled and or rectified from that point. So I think that's essentially what we've discovered here today is that there's work to do on both ends, the apologizer and the apology recipient in order to rectify this issue fully. It is a tough one, though, because I think when it comes to apologizing, when apologies are really necessary, and the correct thing to do, that can be very difficult for people. I know there are some people that I've never heard them apologize ever. Oh my god. Also, PSA. This is a non apology. I'm sorry, you took it that way? I'm sorry. You feel that way? I'm sorry. Got any more? No, I think those are the two big ones. And also the tone that goes with those because I haven't talked I did talk about this one specifically with my therapist, like, What do you say? Like, I'm sorry, you feel that way? If you don't feel you have anything to apologize for? Because like I think a lot of times people definitely don't say I'm sorry, you feel that way? No. But what she said is, or what I think is really important is like I say something that Angela doesn't appreciate. And I don't think I should apologize to her. Either one, I cannot apologize to her. Or to it's like, again, impact versus intent. impactfully I heard a friend or I upset her or I did something which you don't want. Ideally, you don't want to intentionally hurt your friends. I'm sorry, my intention was not to hurt you. So you don't need to necessarily, I don't think because it's like what you say is never really half the thing. You're apologizing for the person who wants you to. It's the acknowledgement that their feelings were hurt. So it's like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Or I can see I hurt you. And I want to apologize, because you should if you weren't your friend or someone you care about you did what you should feel sorry about that. You should want to make amends and acknowledge that they're hurt. Even if you don't think you did anything wrong. Whatever you did hurt them.

Angela 47:12

Exactly. I think it goes along the same lines as well as when we'll have discussions of things that have happened that do warrant an apology. And that's okay, great. So you're apologizing and taking full responsibility for everything that happened between us? Well, no, because there are two people involved in this and we had a misunderstanding, there was unrealized intent, like all of these different things. It's not it's never 100% on one person. I think that just goes back to the idea of or when someone has extended a genuine apology to you and you're like not enough or you want to keep talking about it and continue like bringing it up or years and years think about what it is that you're actually looking for there

Jae 47:54

or similarly just differently phrase that like my brain would interpret a little better what need is missing what what is unfulfilled and isn't realistic because if you're still holding on to it, I mean first before that, I think you need to validate that there's something missing when there's a need that is unfulfilled and then ask yourself is it realistic what is fair in this situation? But I think at first you need to validate and acknowledge there's something here that I can't let go of

Angela 48:17

then you explore the why you have open conversations about it and we don't let things fester and boil and take five years off of our life and stress.

Jae 48:25

No I rather do that with salt oh

Angela 48:26

my god okay, I had potato chips yesterday first time having them in a year I was so happy Oh my God

let the salt take years off your life not not pent up resentment. Exactly. Save it for the good things salt baking a margarita, you're here and on that note, thank you for listening to this episode of In Omnia Partus grab your coffee bowl. And don't forget to rate download and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you want to hear about in the comments bye

Jae 49:00

respect and acknowledge