Being relatable should be a good thing, right? In theory, yes. Through having common interests, experiences, or attributes, we find connections with other people to build and grow relationships. But what happens when only certain circumstances or traits are held up as relatable? 

Today we’re unpacking the conversation from the perspectives of those who might find themselves in the relatable minority. Through art and TV, beauty, social media, friendships, and more, we’re here to start a new conversation – because it’s not about finding people you relate to, it’s about understanding the people around you. 

This episode is inspired by a Kiera Breaugh (who has a podcast Mixed Feelings) TikTok series. 

Show Notes

This is our first time recording in the same room and we’re still figuring out the kinks. Even updating our microphone settings and moving around, both mics were picking up our voices.

  • Fact Check 1: Correct, we cannot explain how Adderall works, but here is the WebMD:
  • Disclaimer: We have never taken Adderall or used marijuana
  • To learn more about Relatability and why it is toxic in our current culture:
  • To lean more about Toxic Positivity:
  • The Brene Brown book that Angela hasn’t been able to make it through is Dare To Lead:
  • Friends are highly relatable to a certain group of people, but the distinction Jae makes s absolutely correct. As an entertainment medium, we are supposed to be able to separate the art from ourselves and objectively be able to pull elements that we can personally relate to outside of the whole; however, we cannot at the same time also discount the power in seeing our own experiences wholly reflected in art when it is so perversely prevalent for others
  • Note: All of friends, love Friends, we are not discounting it completely – it’s just not our favorite
  • Grey’s Anatomy is also not innocent in this relatability storm and we can acknowledge that and call it out as well
  • Fact Check 2: Angela re-watched and did find that she missed not 1, but 2 episodes introducing the new characters
  • Jae has amazing personal style, which she talked about in a previous episode as well. However, Angela thinks that to someone who does not know her, her style is not the easiest to approach, so she has to find ways to indicate approachability
  • Note: Angela’s conversation with other POC women about white and non-white beauty standards across society is a very heavy conversation. It can seem easy to dismiss, but Grown-ish actually did a great job at capturing the feeling
  • The reference to the Grown-ish hierarchy of beauty can be found in this article along with a breakdown of the episodes meaning:
  • Kiera Breaugh is the inspiration for her episode and you can find her TikTok and Podcast here:, we did watch and like Dance Moms for all seasons
  • Join this conversation when you are ready to – don’t join and then be upset and resent other people for *making* you do something you don’t want to do, because that doesn’t help anyone

Jae 0:00

I pledge myself to the pod. Loyal I'll always be a p to start a D at the end, and an O sitting in between

products. I'm jae, like the letter.

Angela 0:16

And I'm Angela, also known as avo,

Jae 0:19

oh my god, that lag is terrible. But listeners for the first time, and frankly the way this is going probably the last time we are recording in the same room.

Angela 0:28

I feel like this is one of those audio tests that you I don't know, did you ever do any of those psych experiments in college Jay, where they would play like multiple tracks of the same voice recording and you would have to follow like one of them.

Jae 0:43

There's a tick tock that does that where it's a bunch of like pop songs. And supposedly it's a joke, which I don't know, it's really a joke about people who have ADHD are able to like listen to the one line of like the Bruno Mars song through what a crap ton

Angela 0:57

of other songs I've actually heard that that's a real thing.

Jae 1:00

Well, I hope not because I was able to do it. And I've never been diagnosed or told I have ADHD, I

Angela 1:05

wouldn't be surprised. Excuse you, I may need to be excused and go record from another room.

Jae 1:11

And know I can try taking heavy ones and see what it does. If it hyper focuses me it means I don't have it. And if it doesn't, then I do it. At least that's what multiple TV shows like Degrassi and Desperate Housewives have taught me

Angela 1:25

so one of my friends was actually recently diagnosed as an adult with ADHD. And apparently, like that's not the case. She said that it does considerably contribute to her focus, but like she 100% has it and she doesn't feel any of the slowness. She said that that's something that she needs to mindfully practice on her own. So I think we've been lied to.

Jae 1:47

I mean, that wouldn't fully surprise me. But also, I'm sure your friend really has it, but it's anecdotal. We're not telling people who take Adderall recreationally or have been diagnosed that if it does help focus that you now have something disclaimed, correct. Remember,

Angela 2:03

we are not medical doctors here just students of Grey's Anatomy

Jae 2:06

I don't know maybe I should have tried more recreational drugs in college. I tried weed once story Angela loves to tell, so maybe we'll get there one day, but if I had tried, I think it would have made me a little bit more relatable to people.

Angela 2:21

Oh my gosh, yes. so relatable to I think pretty much everyone in college. I'm very surprised if you haven't tried it at least once in college. I don't know Jay, do you know anyone who did not partake?

Jae 2:32

Did you try though I

Angela 2:33

believe my first time my first experience with marijuana was actually a group event where almost everyone in my dorm eight edibles mind you that's 60 people

Jae 2:46

no I meant Adderall.

Angela 2:47

Oh, no, I've never so I actually think that I might be a little aDD or ADHD because when I take Sudafed and things like that that's supposed to be an upper and it apparently when it knocks you out that's well I don't know allegedly because maybe we have been lied to uh, but apparently if Sudafed and things like that, Oh, no, wait, wait, I'm confusing it. I take Sudafed, and I get really wake up. Nevermind, scratch that entire story, but I have never tried Adderall. Got

Jae 3:18

it. Thanks. We could clarify that. Yeah, you're like everyone tries that. I'm like, I agree with that. But you're making it sound like you've got it and you were like my first time I'm like, Wait, how many times in college? Did you try?

Angela 3:32

Oh my god. Yeah. Never have tried it. didn't really want to try it because I don't know if anyone has ever like sat in college libraries around midterms or finals and then you watch someone take one and they're up for three days. That was terrifying to me

Jae 3:48

can't late. Really? No, at least not knowingly. I did see multiple people on Snapchat then Yik Yak and all of those fun apology social media anonymous sites have people have sex in the cubicles and in the little rooms but I did not see anyone actively take Adderall. Oh

Angela 4:04

my god. I completely forgot about Yik Yak. That was like the legitimate version of those Facebook confessions pages, right?

Jae 4:11

Yeah, that's also where the bomb threat happened. We had a bomb threat. It might have been my senior year. I just know at one time someone posted something. I swear it was on Yik Yak that like they were going to bring a bomb to campus. So people were just trying to figure out what their classes needed to be canceled or what happened. And it was like near to my memory, which could it be that it was near enough within like a year of the UCLA shooting or bomb, no shooting, it was a shooting sorry, guns are a little bit out of control in this country. So I can't really recall the exact threat to schools or Oh, speaking of our hearts and thoughts and prayers, and all those things go out to the people of San Jose was about four days ago, five days ago, two days ago,

Angela 4:51

three days ago. I'm going to go with three. I may be wrong if I am. I'm very sorry. Wednesday, last Wednesday, obviously not next Wednesday.

Jae 4:59

I wish I could predict things like that. Well not like that kind of thing. But just like if I had the power to predict things of the future, yeah, we're gonna end up there.

Angela 5:06

Again, back to our original topic of relatability.

Jae 5:10

See, for how much you claim, you can be a really good wing man, you really suck at setting me or setting up topics on this show. Like, I just edited the Daydream campus, though. And you try to go on this thing, and I just sit waiting for you to get there. And you're like, you don't have anything. It's like, you're not setting me up? Well, that's the whole reason I brought up in this situation, the whole Adderall thing being relatable. And then you just went off on the ADDIE train, because how is Adderall

Angela 5:33

relatable? How are we okay, why are we going to talk about access to drugs as something that's relatable? Actually, we're not even going to answer that, because then that's me Just going back on the ADDIE train. Okay, so Good morning, listeners. Today, we're talking about the concept of relatability. Throughout our society, there are lots of different ways that we use that term within business, the girl next door in school, sorry, and this may be news to some of you, this is not a new concept. People are very upset with relatability. And they've been upset with relatability for many, many years, but many things during quarantine, people are bored, and they now have the time to listen to other thoughts and perspectives. So this is

Jae 6:15

trending right now. So we'll go high level to more nuanced. So I think the first thing which was very relatable, and we were pushed for a while now has a great new name, toxic positivity,

Angela 6:28

yes, all of the inspirational quotes and the smiles and the clapping and the laughing and if you weren't positive every second of the day, there was something wrong with you, you weren't trying hard enough.

Jae 6:40

And I think with all things that can get out of control, and can take on a life of their own, there are good and bad things, not with toxic positivity, but with being able to self regulate your emotions and have an awareness for when one is actively choosing to hold on to a belief or a mindset that is harmful to oneself. And then on the other hand of that there's also ignoring, pushing down your feelings, particularly in social situations where you don't want to be the down or you don't want to be the bummer. And then you don't end up going to things and then you get called out for bailing all the time. So it was a culture that was really toxic, obviously, because there was no way around it other than to not be happy when you weren't happy. I personally don't recall, fortunately, having many people who would not let me express things when they needed to be expressed or be upset. But I don't know, Angela, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember having experience I saw it go on. But like I didn't participate to my knowledge other than being in a sorority. But that whole thing is another can of worms for two months from now or a month. I

Angela 7:54

don't know when this is coming out. If we're excluding our time in a sorority, I'm going to say yes, overall, you have not been very toxically positive nor do it. Well, I don't know. Are you saying that you haven't experienced anyone pushing toxic positivity onto you?

Jae 8:07

Yes. And I don't mean during our time in Greek life, but like, it's like if we were told during recruitment, like suck it up, put on a smile. That was to me the equivalent of your at your job. And so I'm not saying don't feel your feelings, but every moment isn't the correct moment to release all of your feelings when there's something greater to go on. I'm not saying there's some feelings that will outdo recruit. I'm not saying that if you have feelings, that they're not valid, and you can't express them. But part of being an adult is about knowing how to regulate your feelings in the context of whatever is happening around you. So I don't mean during our four years in total, I mean, like in sorority situations, particularly like recruitment or Founders Day or things like that.

Angela 8:52

Got it. Okay. So I think amongst our friends, I don't think we have very many people in our life who you could call like, toxically. Okay, we don't have anyone in our life who we could call toxically positive. There may be instances where boiler or most of our friends are anxious or depressed. So that's not a big surprise. Fair point. Fair point. Okay. Yeah. So I think anything that we would have experienced, like within the confines of like college related college, mutual friends time, I don't think we really went through but there is one instance of toxic positivity in my life that like totally sticks out to me. And it's one of those things that yes, I'm in therapy to try to get over but I hold on to it because sometimes I'm just petty like that. But in my senior year of high school, within the first month, within my senior year of high school, I had two people in my family who I was close to die, and around the same time, and about a week after the second death happened, I had several friends sit me down at lunchtime at like our usual bench. None of our other friends were there. There were just two of them. And they told me that I was being a real downer. And I just needed to like suck it up, because it's senior year. And it's supposed to be fun. And this is what we've been waiting for. So I should take the time that I needed, and then find them when I was ready next week to get back to being good fun times, Angela.

Jae 10:19

First, thank you for sharing. And secondly, I think what's most unfortunate about that is you had to endure something that no one should ever have to so closely together during such what is a quote unquote, fun time of your life. And the other part of that is, particularly kids and teenagers are not told how to navigate a situation like that. So it's really unfortunate that no one had the tools in their toolbox to navigate that better with you. But to me, I can also see that in the greater systemic context of, we need to do a better job educating our youth, on how to better understand their feelings, and empathize and show compassion for others. So for sure,

Angela 11:07

because it was something that happened within the confines of like these couple people, and then my greater friend group, and then from there, I decided, oh, well, whatever, I have every right to my feelings and processing them and taking this time for myself. So I'm going to go try to connect with new people. And then when I did try to connect with new people, and explain what was going on in my life, they ran away so fast, scary fast. So I think that it is something that we greatly need to address with a younger generation. And hopefully, as we grow to be parents and other people in the world who have an impact on this sort of thing, we can do that. But I feel like that instance, greatly contributed to the toxic positivity that I then put out into the world. Because from then on, I'm not sharing a lot about my life, I'm only going to share the good parts, I'm only going to share happy things, I'm going to focus on the happy things and other people's lives because anything other that seems to be a way to lose friends.

Jae 12:09

That's a great segue into social media. But also I feel like I mean, I don't want to take full credit, and I shouldn't be able to but like I am me, I feel I'm the friend who stopped that because like all I wanted to do was know about your messy family and how holidays worked. Oh, my God. Okay, yeah,

Angela 12:23

we're gonna totally leads into like a greater conversation. But yeah, you broke down a lot of walls. And I do think about this sometimes dealt with therapy of like, sometimes I felt so much better with the walls, because then nobody knew about things. And nobody asked about things. And nobody was asking me to share all the time. And not just do a lot of other people asked me to share things. And it just it gets complicated, because then when you're trying to explain things about your life, particularly that other people have never gone through, it's it makes you very vulnerable and uncomfortable. And sometimes even when you've been discussing it for three hours, or this is the fifth conversation you've had about it, there are some people that still just due to their own life experiences and where they're at, they don't really understand what you're going through. And maybe it'll take some more time. And then they do get there. But it's a he just feels so raw all of the time.

Jae 13:18

If you actually read the Bernie brown books I've been trying to get you to read forever. There's a term for that. It's called a vulnerability hangover.

Angela 13:25

Oh, I kind of like that. I am coming around to Bernie Brown. I as you know, I started reading her book, I couldn't make it past the first few chapters, because I disagree with her on a few things. But now that I know that she has since put out some new perspectives, I can give it more of a try.

Jae 13:43

If that's how you feel maybe start with the podcast. Okay,

Angela 13:45

yeah, because the book that I have was not working for me. But if new perspectives are on the podcast, I can do that.

Jae 13:52

I mean, I wouldn't say they're new at their core, but they factor in other things that weren't factored in necessarily before because the book you're reading was her mostly speaking when she met with like fortune 500 companies and worked with businesses and how to lead but what you get when you listen to the podcast and things, she's a very big advocate for Black Lives Matter for our current administration for things that she might have not had or felt the need to be as vocal about prior to as Whoopi Goldberg says, the last man who lived in the White House.

Angela 14:20

So listeners for those of you who have probably now, now pieced it together, what we're talking about the Renee brown book that I was reading discussed how she came to her findings through a I don't know, I guess we can almost call it a relatable sampling of people. And when she presented how she came to that relatable sampling, it was not relatable at all.

Jae 14:41

Yes. Something that I remember an interview with, and I think this is something that like was very mind blowing to me was I was watching some show and I don't remember who it was. So I'm not gonna even try to guess because as you may or may have not known from our Instagram, Angela mixed up two people yesterday, so I'm not sure Gonna make the same mistake publicly. But I was watching something. And they were saying how they could not relate to the show friends. And obviously there are a lot of things about friends I cannot relate to. I think it's stupid how they all have jobs, but none of them are at work. They're always at the coffee shop, the apartments they can afford. All of that, to me is very unrelatable. And unrealistic. But it's part of me understanding it's a sitcom world, it's a sitcom thing. But more and more as things will come to light. People are like, You're telling me they're in one of the most diverse cities in the world, and there's not a person of color, you're telling me that these people X, Y, and Z, and when someone's that they couldn't relate at all I was really confused because no, of course, I can't relate to their exact experience. But I clean like Monica i can I've seen characteristics that I can pull from like, to me, friends How I Met Your Mother, I've never seen the office. Sorry, everyone, these kind of over exaggerated archetypes. I can't relate particularly. But I understand I have more muted experience with those traits with people who I do surround myself with. So the concept that something like that someone's like I can't relate to it was really confusing to me.

Angela 16:07

It's funny that you bring up friends, because I feel like it's referenced so much in terms of relatability. And I was I was recently reading an article where someone was trying to defend it in terms of it being relatable to a certain demographic, and yes, on that, from that perspective, it is true, it's very much meant to appeal to a certain group. But I feel like the overarching theme here is that there's just such a lack of diversity within their group and all of them. Oh, okay. The only term I can think of right now is failing everything that they do. They just seem to like land on their feet, and everything turns out, right. And it's that just doesn't, it doesn't happen for everyone. Basically, it doesn't happen for anyone. And one of the things about friends is that it seems to have like really like spurred on something that people seem to want to aspire to. So I don't exactly know, like, I feel like it's setting you up to fail.

Jae 17:04

I can see that. But I think I get what you're saying and I think I can I'm getting a better understanding everyday of how it's not as how it's not relatable to everyone and thanks. It was just very a confusing thing for me in my personal life because I grew up I preach and I have pride in this how diverse My family is. I'm not pulling the like I have one black friend card. I'm my whole family. I've only known great diversity and inclusion. So I could take personality traits from most shows from shameless to black ish to fresh off the bow. I'm assuming probably in the money hi show. I don't know how to say it in Spanish, but I know it's popular, but I can take traits and relate them back to the people in my life without being like the greater system is unrelatable because to me in general, I've never seen TV as a relatable thing as much as I was waiting for Zac Efron to come serenade me like I didn't. I knew there was a high chance that wouldn't happen. I knew there's a high chance even though I started a blog, I wasn't going to have the high school boys fighting over me after a accidental appeared suicide attempt awkward. If you hadn't seen that show. It's the show called awkward. Watch the first five minutes you'll get the seat I'm referencing see. And

Angela 18:17

this is where you're the unicorn like this is what life should be. This is how we should View Television and media and different forms of art out there. It's like we should try to draw from them what we can, we shouldn't take it at face value. However, the majority of people in society do take it at face value. And so therefore this concept of relatability becomes the standard to which we then try to hold everything in our lives like oh, this because we're using friends. I'm going to take Monica it's gonna be like, oh, like, here's Monica. She's like, successful overachiever, slightly neurotic, but super pretty thin, amazing quippy banter. This is what women should be like. And then if you don't completely prescribe to that idea of what women should be like, there are also two other alternatives Phoebe and Rachel but they're all variations on the same theme. And so it just relatability it really gets you and so it just becomes this. It's the cheese wheel running down the hill, you try to catch it and you can't that's what I'm going with.

Jae 19:26

Okay, I want to move on back to an example of our personal lives but before I do that, can you explain to me just because this is a more not foreign concept, but a concept I'm still trying to grasp personally. How show like one of our favorites, Grey's Anatomy is different like i'm not i'm not inept. I hope that's hard. We haven't counseling I'm not inept, like I understand the difference between friends and Grey's Anatomy. But for me, similarly, I pull from Arizona's love of children Christina's drive I hate Meredith, Mark and Lexi and Lexi is kind of ability to kind of I wish I had her her relatability and quirkiness to always seem to get the right say the wrong thing. But like that I love Kelly and how strong she is how that differs from friends how someone who didn't grow up in the terms of my family and the way I see relatability how someone could differentiate that, if that makes sense.

Angela 20:19

So I love grays and j April for life. I am April Kepner. But I'm actually on the border of canceling Grey's. So Grey's Anatomy is not that different from friends, actually, in terms of the relatability. And the way that things are set up there. It's just presented, I don't know, I'm going to call it like maybe like two or three, three degrees away from friends. Because they do go for they approach their unrelatable lives from a more diverse angle. And they actively do call things out. Oh, yeah, like this is happening to you. And like this would never happened to me. So they get some points there. However, one of the things that I don't like and you need to let me fully explain this before, before you comment, but one of the things that I don't like is with everything that's been happening in our world, the past year, all of the different diversity and representation initiatives that have been happening, graze all of a sudden infused a bunch of new non white characters into their cast, and didn't really explain how they got there. Just like all of a sudden, this new, like mother daughter team, who are Hispanic showed up at the hospital, no explanation of why they're there just for COVID. Are they on loan? Did they transfer in what's going on, but all of a sudden, they have them there are some background cast is looking more diverse as well. And they're now tackling issues from a year ago, they've written them into the script with the death of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, so they're getting there. And that's how they're working it into their script, but it doesn't quite feel genuine. It feels like they've kind of been placed in and they were hoping that we wouldn't notice.

Jae 22:02

The whole mother daughter thing they came in as they were part of the new resident. I

Angela 22:05

do not remember them at all. I have never seen them.

Jae 22:08

Yeah, they've I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid, and your point is invalid. But yeah, they came in when karasik was in charge, because he's like, okay, one of you is one of us gonna be like big last name. And one of us like little last name like they've been around. Are they getting more featured? And more more character? Yes. But they didn't just throw them in this season?

Angela 22:28

Did I miss an episode?

Jae 22:29

Do you remember when karasik was given their new residents, because that's the episode it happened. But they were featured they were 100%. There. Again, I'm not defending Grey's Anatomy as a whole are not saying that they're doing that they're not doing this, just that particular point, I want to correct but the overall sentiment I can understand and this also, I'm not saying this for sure. But okay, let that's current Grey's Anatomy, but go back and think about in 2004, when that show first launched and what it did and what was going on, then, would you we can always go back and figure out a reason to cancel something or to criticize it or keep it accountable. whatever term you want to go with what feels best, but for what it was doing, when it was seasons six through nine, do you still see those problems for the time in which those were happening when Sean does still had control of the show?

Angela 23:21

I do. And I think especially as some of the actors who now no longer work on the show, talk about how they have walked would have liked to have seen their characters explore more of their diversity angles, I can totally see that. Okay,

Jae 23:35

fair enough. I'm not saying in general, what you're saying isn't correct and accurate to what they might be trying to appease or to stay relevant or to whatever they're trying to do, or whether it's them seeing a way to showcase diversity in a way they hadn't previously, all of the above just the one point about the mother and daughter that they were there prior to this season. They didn't just chuck into like, next mother and daughter into the show and like fuse them in. They did get more screen time but they were in that resident cloud.

Angela 24:01

We'll see again, if I potentially missed like one or two episodes and those were the only two where they have been seen and they've been a part of this resident class. What does that say about what's going on within the way that the show is being run that I feel like they're brand new?

Jae 24:16

I mean, fair, I felt the same way about Helm for two seasons, though.

Angela 24:19

Oh, love how mouth love her.

Jae 24:22

But yeah, she would mm month. I'm just saying like sometimes I've seen this happen with other resident classes and things were grazing too. And again, I'm not saying this is right. That's just like what I've observed. Like she I remember, we're just in the backyard of everything. And then it's like, oh, you have lines. Oh, I see you in every scene but you're not talking. So again, Grey's has worked in its show running and writing process, but this isn't the first time they've brought in a resident or residents and not really featured them much after first bringing them up. We can comment though on how the residents you can remember our joe wilson white, Andrew DeLuca why Meredith Grey, you can also focus on Who they do focus on from the resident classes and how they do lift them up and who gets screentime? Oh, definitely. And I think as well,

Angela 25:07

but I guess now since we've moved on to this new resident class, the previous resident class, didn't they almost completely dissolve them. You never see any of them around anymore, except for

Jae 25:17

guy who was in the military and Qadri. I couldn't even tell you who those people are. I think Grey's never got its footing back with the resident class after the plane crash. I really see Grey's Anatomy is like two different shows. And frankly, like three acts, there's seasons one to eight, then there's nine to Christina and Derek leaving. And then there's everything after personally, that's how I separate Grey's Anatomy, because I think but after season eight, they never really were able to figure out the resident situation Well, again, but now we're digressing too much.

Angela 25:49

All right, back to relatability. Okay, so I know you're probably dying to talk about this one. on a few occasions, I have said that Jay, his personal style comes off as unrelatable. And I have come up with a better word, you're not going to like this word, but I think it's a better word to describe what I actually mean,

Jae 26:09

does it go with my effected accent?

Angela 26:11

Oh, completely. I think what I actually mean when I say that your style is sometimes unrelatable. And I'm very sorry, I'm apologizing in advance. I think I've been not personable. So it's not that there's something about you that it's not about there. It's not that there's something necessarily unrelatable about the way that you dress. It's just that I think from my perspective, it could be a little bit more warm and welcoming, you

Jae 26:40

know? And Shouldn't that be what I do on my Bumble profile, your friends would describe you as so you can say unapproachable, personable. There we go on my recommendation for a friend on personal bull dresser. Okay,

Angela 26:52

so the Bumble profile is what brought this conversation about. And I think it's just it was all of the black and white and not smiling. would you approach someone who was wearing all black and white and not smiling? Would you? Would you feel warm? Would you feel welcomed? Would you

Jae 27:08

I understand the feedback that my friends have so graciously given me time and time again, about the way I dress. And this to me kind of goes into the more nuanced part of this conversation that we're going to have, which is about how this all falls back to me as most things due to capitalism and white supremacy. Ready? Okay, let's

Angela 27:30

do it.

Jae 27:31

So I am aware that current beauty standards are set based on at least in America are based on systemically white men's preference and capitalism of how to sell women how to appeal to that preference. So the whole thing was me knowing I dress unperceivable bleak and person a bully Angeles, the English major, I do math. What that means is that I don't approach I don't look approachable to men who I might want a day or two friends, I might want to mate based on content, both smiling thing I get. But again, you shouldn't be telling women to smile, Simone Biles on Dancing with the Stars if you haven't seen that clip, but I also know at the same time to date and to hopefully find a partner sooner rather than later. And to make friends and to do things. I need to alter some of these things to fit more into quote unquote relatability territory, which is a sticky spot, because then I'm also feeding into the narrative into the beauty standard into relatability, which strengthens all of these systems that we always talk about which somehow some people don't understand the concept of,

Angela 28:42

well see, I don't necessarily think it's about you changing the way that you dress or the way that you look. I think it's just about being aware of it and knowing that in my in your super sleek, all black outfit, not smiling, sometimes, maybe you have to make the first move to show that you're open and ready for that kind of contact because there's I'm not saying that we necessarily have to make other people feel comfortable. But there is something about showing like a mutual openness that does help build and foster relationships and sometimes not smiling on dating apps does not necessarily show that you're open to the mutual contact.

Jae 29:23

I'm smiling in most of them. There was just two or three I wasn't smiling and one of my face was yet all

Angela 29:29

in all of the okay in your first six lineup photos. You weren't smiling and then your head was chopped off in one of them. It looks like the same thing that we complain about from men were like oh douchebag who doesn't smile and only shows his abs

Jae 29:42

I just pulled them up I'm smiling and four of these four out of six after we altered them know the originals. I was smiling and four out of six I just pulled

Angela 29:50

up the photo recenter these I'm looking at them These were not your original.

Jae 29:55

Yes they were

Angela 29:56

no they're not you were wearing all black and white and not smiling except For the yellow dress photo,

Jae 30:01

those were the first six. I don't know what to tell you.

Angela 30:04

I shall continue to respectfully disagree with you. These were not the first six.

Jae 30:09

Okay, well either way, these six I still were told, I still was told I needed to edit work, I'll be better. But either way I understand the smiling and approachability thing. My issue was with what I was wearing, I could be smiling. I could be frowning. But the point that you originally made it was about the outfit itself, whether my head was in it or not, which to me is where I go with I was told I was dressing unrelatable

Angela 30:33

Yes. And I think from there, we can go ahead and relate that back to the male gaze, white supremacy, capitalism, all of that there are certain things that we are taught through the structure of our society are good, bad, approachable, not approachable, happy, warm, violaceous fun, sad, weird, disgusting, whatever. And from there, I will acknowledge I have a huge complex. And so therefore, that is why I have been rethinking this and Okay, from the six that you just sent me We will, we'll use this to create a new standard where I tried to pull away that filtering, and it's cute, you're cute, you're always you, you have a great style, it fits you very well. But what we have to remember is that it's not something that works for everyone. And I think in part of that, that's where we get back into relatability because Is it time for the Instagram conversation?

Jae 31:29


Angela 31:30

I think so sorry, we're just we're switching all the gears

Jae 31:33

I mean, I don't think so. It's a natural transition. So I remember being in a sorority I don't care where you are West Coast East Coast South wherever your Instagram is subtly and not so subtly told needs to a peer certain image leaning back into that toxic positivity stuff so I like most young impressionable females had a big thing about my Instagram so what it led me to do is turn off my notifications because I would literally get many panic attacks when I post a photo now I post once every seven months and when it doesn't hit the target I get a little sad about it luckily the photo I posted in LA prove my millennial side still as like a boomer they still had it still got I still got it and when it came and this was about it was after we graduated, when did you go down for to San Diego 2018 2019 2019. So post college most people fall off the face of social media unless they're becoming an influencer or starting and all my fans are professional things. Instagram really is not what it used to be. I know it's not like a boomer anyway, so it came time for posing and things and the way we look and the way we dress and Angela said in general, I've already said this once I will say it again when I leave my house I am ready any day for Harry Styles, Zac Efron reggae john page to propose to me that is the outfit that is the impression I give the seconds I leave my door. And apparently that can be a little personable. But still, I'm ready for that moment with the paparazzi. Anyway, when it comes to posing, I have certain poses I have certain things it's like, and in my world, it's like, well, yeah, I just do what the other girls on Instagram do. And sometimes it hits sometimes it doesn't as well. But like I'm always happy with the photo, I always think I look good. And I always get the validation from my close circle that it's a good photo. Angela had a very interesting conversation that still confuses me to this day while she was in San Diego with some of our friends who were of a range of more all of medium skinned pocc.

Angela 33:27

Yes, so I was in San Diego with some of our friends. And we all happen to be non white. And we went out for a friend's birthday. And we went to this super lovely instagrammable Place the Carlsbad flower field if anyone has ever been there, it's beautiful. totally recommend it as like a nice day trip. And we were taking photos for like the first hour that we were there that we went to a wine tasting and everything. And then on the way home, everyone started getting their photos ready to post on Instagram. And I found some that I liked but I didn't love and I was trying to figure out what to do. And everyone else in the car is way more fluent in Instagram than I was. So they were helping me out. And I started talking about another person who several of us followed on social media that we knew from college, and I was just like, oh my god, I wish I could be like her like she's just so flawless and effortless and every one of her photos and they all stopped and turned around and looked at me. They were like, seriously, and I responded. I was like Yeah, of course. Like just look at her. I pulled up her Instagram and one of the girls turned to me She's like, honey, you know, it's just because she's white, right? No, what are you talking about? You think she's super pretty and effortless and flawless? Because she's white. She's like, Look, if you look at

Jae 34:41

her, she's cute.

Angela 34:42

She's not exceptionally beautiful. You're really pretty too. You know that right? She's like, you are just as pretty as her and that shocked me. I was quiet for the rest of the ride home because I'd never thought of it that way before. I always knew that there was something that made me innately uncomfort Trouble about Instagram and posting photos of myself like even even before Instagram, like on Facebook and things like that. I always knew my photos got likes, but they never got as many likes as other people. It's like even when we were doing like the same things at the same events all like prom like all like super pretty in our dresses, with our hair and makeup done in everything I did well, that I never did, as well as other people. And I couldn't figure out why until that moment. And not to structure this purely within the confines of race. But it's true different races are held to different standards in comparison to white beauty. So for example, I know like we've touched on this a little bit in a previous episode, and oh, my gosh, I wish I pulled it up before this because I feel like there's the show grown ish, which sort of makes a joke out of this, but they're also serious white girls can be a perfect 10. But then there's a hierarchy after that for all other skin tones, girls with this skin tone, they can like max out at a nine girls with this skin tone max out at an eight. And then when you get here, it's like these three or sevens. But if you do this, it's like maybe you can get a half a point above, maybe you can get like a bonus point or something like that. But you have a max cap in comparison to white beauty. And that was the first time that I ever realized I was completely holding myself within that standard. And I had already started to discount myself as less than in comparison to other people.

Jae 36:27

And not that I'm like the white Savior and defending this. But this was something that you realized about your own internal white supremacy rather than you feeling from white or other lighter skinned PCs that they were putting on to you correct. I'm not saying they didn't contribute, but this overall kind of revelation was more about the way you viewed yourself, then oh, come anyway, it was

Angela 36:49

something that I that like took the rest of the night I'd stayed up for like hours like thinking about and then started to have conversations with other people about and found out and especially from now tik tok and Instagram because I use it more. There are a lot of other PLCs out there who feel exactly like I do, and are just as befuddled and sad because they're especially now as Jay and I are new to the world of content creators. Like there's so many content creators out there who are trying to do their thing and they're held to unrelatable standards.

Jae 37:23

There's this new tech talker who I've loved watching that I recently found her name is euro we'll leave it in the show notes and we'll probably tag her on Instagram because Kira brow I found her and she says a lot of the things that I can understand as well as things that I'm still learning and working on

Angela 37:42

and and frankly she is the inspiration for today's episode because it all came from her Tick Tock on relatable and relatable beauty

Jae 37:50

what so there's this other tech talker I'm sure if you're anywhere near my algorithm or not you've probably seen her videos and she does a series of y x Tick Tock or blows up why x tech talker influencer grows the way they do. And one of the first videos I saw of cares was hertz responding or stitching if you're on tech dog to or because they're white, one of the tech talkers who I really love to watch her name is tanks. I'm sure she's verified. Most people have seen her someone did some digging into her background. And really, she's naturally wealthy. And the thing is what people a lot of times don't realize similarly to friends similarly to things, those who seem relatable and who beat into their early inability. Okay, also Rachel Hollis, who I had Angela, look into the drama around that last night, we don't realize the things because what they do, and this isn't like, I don't think this is a vindictive thing. Everyone's had an experience with the bad day. Everyone's had an experience with like, oop, I fell in front of a hot boy. And they lead with that. So there's a certain level of comfort and vulnerability you feel. And what it does is it falls out some of the other things like I saw this video yesterday about Taylor Swift, I'm not going to whatever your thoughts on her, ignore them and just like listen to what I heard. So everyone, she talks on how a lot of times she self made and how she's self made in the music industry. both of her parents were in investment banking, her dad owned a branch of a firm or was the president of it for years, and her mother was an investment banker as well. So even though she had necessarily no connection to the music industry, no things she had the time she could book a flight to LA she could book a flight to Nashville, they could stay in hotels and push her around county fairs and to things which is another privilege time and I don't think people realize that big correlation between money and time to do this a lot of content creators who we see who are wealthy no matter what color they are, have the time to be content creators because they have the luxury of not worrying about doing a nine to five or getting that in or making sure they have enough money to eat or to live. And that's the stuff you don't see in a 15 second Tech Talk or a one minute Instagram story. That is that big gap that's just an unspoken one on social media.

Angela 39:55

I know I was completely Mind blown when I found out that most content creators, don't ask Have another job that they do, like their sole source of income is content creation, or it may be family related or from a spouse or something like that. Like it's it's crazy. Yeah, I think one of I think one of the biggest things to remember here is that for everything that makes one person on the internet seem relatable to you, there is a lot that you're not seeing. And I feel like we don't we don't focus on that enough. Like we earlier like before, like with like friends and TV and media, a lot of people just take things at face value. It's like we should be looking beyond that we should be looking deeper. It's not necessarily like being investigative or like prying into someone's privacy, but it's remembering that these people who you aspire to emulate they have this completely separate life behind the scenes where there's a lot of stuff going on that you might not know

Jae 40:51

definitely. And then this also goes into the greater point which is I don't know how many of you know Rachel Hollis have read her books. She's a white author who basically built a brand on those This is what I look like when I wake up do you take your coffee this way? Oh my God, my husband and I did this and now her husband and her divorce but like that's the one thing she was on an Instagram Live and someone said something about you're not relatable anymore, which in itself is problematic because how are we defining relatable but her given response to being told that is WTF you think I want to be relatable for and then she goes into I work hard blah, blah, blah lady who cleans my toilets, terrible things but I think that also shows of her entire brand was live laugh, love you do you be weird, quirky, they weird Portland, Seattle, whatever it is, her entire brand was made off of that just new girl kind of quirky. You're not not necessarily the prettiest one in the room. But like you're relatable. Literally, that's the whole thing. She made it so anyone could feel related to her and therefore could aspire to be her. And now that she's in this position of wealth from all of that, she's now completely backpedaling, and it shows she built a whole brain on being relatable. And she doesn't want to be because she wants to be better than everyone who followed her because

Angela 42:11

they could relate to her. And now the super PSA of the day. You are not better than anyone. Nobody is better than anyone else. We are all humans. We are all equals when we get into this whole idea. Oh, I have I have a housekeeper. So that makes me better than you. What does that even mean? We're gonna add in a quick addendum there where we're not we're not enabling anyone and we're not excusing anyone's behavior. We are not in Yes, quick agenda. We are not innately better than anyone else. Correct.

Jae 42:41

I also think going back to this concept, which we hit back in a few episodes of the term chewy and this millennial millennial infighting side part skinny jeans, all of these things, Angela, I'm hoping you saw the TIC tocs I sent you about when girl crush Tick Tock crush Kira spoke about chewy and chewiness. I did

Angela 43:00

I loved them very much.

Jae 43:02

I also think it was interesting the points you made and again, I don't know the history of this some girl named Chris Morris or whatever who started this no hate to people with those names. I just remember the girl who started Heather maybe Emily but the whole thing is what Kara pointed out was kind of things that are considered shuggie are just typically things white women like and somehow or another I only really hear white Tick Tock creators being like oh my god, did you know we can no longer wear skinny jeans inside parts? Like I never have seen PLCs do what I've never seen Jen's ears for Zoomers say that it's always been millennial saying oh my god, have you heard this? This I think especially goes for white woman. And again, this is not me excusing, but this is me empathizing and this is for women in general. Have you ever seen where a woman had an interest in somehow it wasn't downgrade or made fun of like if a woman like I mean, Angela, I know this one's for you. If a woman like sports, it's cute. Like oh, like which player do you like? What? Like what mascot? Oh, it's because you like the cheerleaders. Oh, a woman likes chess. God she's such a big nerd like how does she do it? She likes cooking all she's going to be such a great mom and homemaker. There's nothing a female can have an interest in that somehow doesn't get invalidated or put down or talk down to and particularly with in our system of white women being so close to that power. They're also kind of like Abby Lee Miller says I quote her more than I think I realize I do second places first loser. So white women also have the most to gain by holding these things and creating more levels within themselves to put unfortunately to put each other farther and farther away from the patriarchal supremacist power. That was a lot.

Angela 44:41

No, you're good. It's really interesting because they're men don't care. Oh, I can't wear these jeans anymore. Whatever. These are the ones that are comfortable. Have you seen like what dads walk around in like the dad sneakers and the shorts and the White Sox aka my dad but they they literally don't hair like I've tried like buying my dad like different things. So I'm like, Oh Dad like this is cool or like this might look better like this is a little bit more of a polished look was like dads, other men in general, they don't care. Like we could tell them until we're blue, like women can tell men that they were women can tell men that they looked ridiculous until they were blue in the face. And literally nothing would happen, nothing would change, their self esteem wouldn't be affected as a whole, not in the way that it is. For women, it only takes one comment from one man to completely wreck a woman self esteem. And I don't know, again, personal storytime because I have a migraine. And my brain isn't working to really analyze things much outside of myself today. So there was this one time where I was out with some friends. And we were sitting in a bar, and there was a guy there who I knew, but I didn't know very well. And again, we were going on Instagram to post some pictures. And so you're passing our phones around for everyone to help caption and when I passed my phone to him, he was like, Why are you putting this up on Instagram? This is a photo that like you send your parents He's like, this isn't hot. This isn't gonna get any likes, what are you doing, and I didn't know this person very well, it shouldn't have affected me, but it crushed me because in theory, he is my target Instagram demographic. Like I don't really post on Instagram for my family. It's for like friends and friends of friends and those random people that you keep following from college who you haven't spoken to, and like seven years, but here was someone in theory from my demographic telling me that my photo wasn't going to get any likes, that it wasn't good that no one was going to like it. So why should I put it out there. But being a strong independent woman who strives to not care what men think I should put it out there just because I want to put it out there because if I liked it enough to post it, it should be posted. And that's all that should matter. Regardless of the number of likes that it gets comments, anything like that, sure, those things would be great, because that's what Instagram and your 20s seems to be about. But also just Who cares? Who cares about being relatable or accessible or unrelatable, whatever, just if you're living your life in a way that makes you happy, live your life and be happy. But then from a slightly more convoluted perspective, as Jay is now back the things that we do to live our lives and make ourselves happy can sometimes then create a further divide when we don't think about the full impact that they're having on our fellow women. And thank you again Chiara brow giving us this, I guess I don't know j i think there are two tiktoks that really relate to this, this idea that we need to be mindful of the things that we do that influence our appearance, particularly in the way that further creates a divide between beauty accessibility for all women,

Jae 47:54

he did a video on women getting plastic surgery or anyone but particularly women getting plastic surgery and on how I similarly agree women have the right to do whatever they want to their bodies, faces whatever they may be, however, in the greater system of capitalism and white supremacy, all getting surgery does is widen the beauty gap and the standard because then it has to go with access and to acne into obtain access, you need money which feeds into capitalism, and the beauty standard gap gets wider for women who can't do that. Because originally my stance was a woman should do whatever she wants to her face, like it's not my business, whatever makes her feel confident, happy. And I still stand by that I will never judge another woman for getting plastic surgery or any what's the word when it's not a cosmetic procedure that they feel is right, whether that be filler, Botox, facials, waxing, whatever they may be, that is fine. And that is not my business. However, at the same time, it does as a system build the blocks into our current system, which I didn't realize until yesterday, because one of the examples she gave is if women were separated and put on planets by themselves, what they feel the need for surgery, would they feel the need to change anything? And the answer's no, because half of it is comparison. And yes, some comparisons Yes, I agree that comparison is the thief of joy. At the same time, though multiple mindsets of scarcity and worthiness and connection which unfortunately should not be tied together in society but they are because I had this thought about it. I'm I'm fortunate enough I would not go as far to say that I have pretty privileged in all of its forms but especially within my peers, but I grew up being told my entire life I was beautiful. I was pretty every time a family friend would see me I was never told anything wrong about the way I look. So I assume that is some sort of pretty privileged and I like the way my Facebook However, if I felt the need to, let's say get lip filler because I want my lips to be a little bit bigger. It's like five to $700 a syringe. So that means I have a free five $700 per syringe means I have the time to take out and do it. And that I can go more towards what the beauty standard is because I want to look more like what I think the men I want to date would look for. And I understand that's a bit inception, but then I'm also making other women have to appeal to them. But then on the flip side of that, if that let's say, I'm a, I'm going to take a stance, I'm not going to get let go until every woman and all humans make that stance, all my decision does is perpetuate the narrative to me that that will be the reason I can't be in a relationship when it itself is a bit toxic. And I understand that. But until we have a better solution, I can't see women changing their opinions on that. So I think it's a very tricky spot to be in with comparison and body augmentation. Oh,

Angela 50:47

I agree. I think there's no great way to approach body augmentation. But I think it's like, if it's if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. I think that especially if you choose, like, if you're making the active choice to alter your appearance for a non medical reason, I think that the best thing that we can do to help is like be upfront about it, there are a lot of things I would like to change about my body and whether or not they actually need to be changed. Or it's just because I've heard them for so long. I'm not sure but there are things that I'm going to do. Maybe my nose will get some filler, maybe well, no, I'm definitely getting either the chin tuck or implant, that's going to be something but I'm also not going to pretend that I just look this way I plan on being very upfront about it. Because I feel like that's the best thing I could do for other women is to acknowledge that I didn't always look this way. And what you're looking at right now isn't real. It's not something that I could just change on my own by diet or exercise. But it's something that helps me feel like the outside matches my inside. Does that make sense? Because I know the inside is the one that should matter the most. But I really do understand the idea of your reflection not matching who you are.

Jae 52:03

I think what you're saying is something that just everyone should openly say the other thing though, which I don't I'm not trying to shame anyone. And I guess I'm still working on the way to do this with this new revolution. And yes, I don't have to completely agree with everything that Kira says just a lot of the things she says articulate in a way that I am able to think about things in a palatable way for me to grasp certain concepts and to think about things. So when it comes to plastic surgery or any sort of augmentation, I also think one needs to be reflective on the privilege they have to do it and the privilege that will be gained by doing it

Angela 52:42

along with admitting Oh, for sure. And I think also acknowledging some of that sacrifice as well. Because I think that there are people that actively decide to save for plastic surgery and turn instead of saving for rent or food. Maybe that means not eating out for a year because you're trying to save that extra $1,000 for your hospital fee is and knowing it's like you're when you're going for something like this. Sometimes you're really aspiring to something that is not easily accessible for you. And especially on that level. It's like I would never want to tell someone like oh, like you did something that's wrong because you You worked hard for it

Jae 53:22

definitely I think the part which is hard for me to swallow, which I think is part of the whole yes and thing is realizing for me certain behaviors and things that I do not on the big of a scale for example, we're going to brunch today, I called my hair and I've it's actually part blonde right now it's highlighted I did these things because I wanted to but also knowing I mean I don't necessarily know since highlights what reactions will be from people but I do know when my hair is curled I get more attention all around men, women, whenever people ask me if it's natural, have you seen the picture with my hair curl? I've never seen anyone's natural hair the way vinylux curl but like I take it as a compliment. But the thing is Angela with naturally curly hair, I'm sure it doesn't get nearly the compliments I do on my curl hair. And I think that it's hard knowing I'm even doing these kind of micro things that are in total building blocks and helping to keep things the way they are while also being such an activist and voting well I change that I don't consider myself an activist. I don't advocate for things like causes I believe in for things. I think that are right. But I am not an activist. But I try to use my voice and create platforms and let other people use our platform to speak such things. But even putting makeup on getting my eyebrows waxed doing things that I think make me more confident but then going well why do they make me more confident? Oh, well, I get attention and therefore get a sense of validation which upholds the current beauty standards that some people can't reach naturally and there but at the same time, I feel no need to change what I do, which is where this whole acknowledgement and reflection is coming in. And honestly

Angela 54:50

I think that's the first step full disclosure, everyone. We started this conversation last night and frankly with all the stop and start recording we've had to do in the last couple of minutes. We probably should I've just started recording last night too, but I would rather and I think a lot of people as well it's like as others come into this revelation, it's like I would rather you take the time and fully reflect on it and understand what's going on and how you feel and feel ready to make a change. If you want in whatever way you want. I'd rather that feel fully genuine than you deciding to not curl your hair this morning, and then feeling resentful that you didn't get to curl your hair and look the way that you wanted. For example, today, because I thought we were potentially going to record this with video, I didn't straighten my hair yet for brunch. So it's in it's naturally curly, stay a little bit brushed out. And after this episode, I'm going to take it down, brush it out again, straighten it, wait for it to set and then curl it so that I can feel the way that I want to at brunch. And this may or may not work out because we're leaving for brunch soon enough. So it may just end up being straightened given time constraints. But the time that I'm taking to do this, it is a privilege, the tool that I'm taking to do this is also a privilege because not all hot tools are made the same and not all are easily accessible. Like for example, Jay and I both use flat iron that comes from Italy. And it's like the best of the best and absolutely amazing. And maybe we'll end up linking it on the website if anyone wants it. But it's again, like completely a privilege and also something that j doesn't need to do. I don't need to do like she said, like I have like curly hair. If I wanted, I could go wet it and reset it with some Curl Cream and scrunch in bunch and then walk and then rock a nice wavy fro for the day because my hair is all one length right now from all my quarantine cut, but doesn't bring full joy in the sense of we're going to brunch with our friends and I want to look cute, but

Jae 56:46

then that goes into the system of I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here. I also have a question for you. But before that, no one's ever made a comment of you when your hair looks like it was blown out. You've never gotten any criticism, you have gotten criticism for your curly hair before, correct?

Angela 57:01

Oh, yeah, completely. Like I've had people approach me and be like, why don't you just brush your hair? Or why don't you put your hair up things like that? or Why? Or even Why don't you straighten your hair? Have you ever thought about getting a relaxing treatment. And I think even in college, which I don't know, maybe this will bring this new perspective, it'll bring you like a new insight into what I did in college. But I would literally conduct experiments where I would go to class one day with curly hair, and then one day with straight hair. And then I would track all of the male and female attention, frankly, that I got like in terms of compliments, or if people wanted to approach me or speak to me. And there was definitely, I think a correlation between the uptick in a friendly conversation and read an outreach that I got from people when I had straight hair versus when I had curly hair like exact same like outfits or type of outfit. The only thing different would be my hair. And it's sad, but at least I kind of knew where I stood with people like people who only wanted to speak with me when I had straight hair I knew weren't really in it for me. They were in it for what it looked like interacting with me.

Jae 58:08

Yeah. And that's part of the reason why you feel like straightening your hair for brunch, because you don't get feedback. When your hair is straight. You get feedback when it's curly. Hypothetically, if you've never gotten a dirty look, a comment a question when your hair was curly, you might not feel anything to string you might still choose to because you saw it on Beyonce, Jennifer Lopez, someone you like and you're Oh, I want to see if I can get my hair to do that. But if you personally weren't as criticized with the curly hair, you might not feel it a default I'm going in public, I'm going on a date, I'm going to where I need to straighten my hair.

Angela 58:43

Oh 100%. And I'll fully admit to the men out there sorry, I do cat fish you like all of my pictures on dating apps are with straight hair or with straight hair that's then been curled. And then the true curls come out maybe about three months into dating, maybe depending upon what the how things are going. But it's something

Jae 59:02

that I don't know if I necessarily feel like changing because it's like you said earlier, it's like if I'm one person doing this, it doesn't necessarily make a difference. Very true. And then I think my one wrap up question because we do need to get ready and whatever you can respond. And this is just something like I mean, I might even take this out. So like you mentioned earlier, you don't want people joining this conversation think about till they're ready to join and kind of understand like how I'm trying I'm starting to understand this but at the same time you who have experienced this more than I do you also don't think that you're all the way there either even though you can admit to it because you're still feeding in and holding these blocks to and I'm not saying this like Oh, you're bad. You're not better or whatever. But it's a thing of like, I am just starting this conversation but even women who are part of this are still working through

Angela 59:52

Oh yeah. Because like I said, like I only fully came to a true realization of what was going on three years ago, like I could always feel that something was off and that there was something that I didn't like about it. But I didn't have the words to articulate it. And I couldn't even admit it to myself, which is why I say come to the conversation. Welcome join, join in, like whenever you want, ask as many questions as you want in a respectful manner, but at the same time, I hold more respect, I think the cause has more respect and more true momentum when people come to it, and decide that they want to make changes when they fully understand because it's like signing a petition without knowing what the petition is about. Yeah, you potentially helped further a good cause. But you don't know why your signature matter, you don't know what you are exactly helping. If you can't explain why you're doing it or what good is going to come of it. How are you actually helping in a meaningful way?

Jae 1:00:55

I agree. And I think I just personally wanted that clarification because like, I mean, but I also think we covered this relatability conversation from the lenses and the tools we had this goes into everything it goes into body positivity, it goes into whether you understand it or not hot girl summer, it goes into ableism like we already mentioned, it does have to do with class relatability and all of its forms toxic positivity. relatability in itself, similar to words like normal are problematic and the way we speak because when it comes down to someone you think is relatable. You're nine times out of 10 going to get friends more than you get help a girl out. Okay, after our long intermission, we can't think of a show that would be another one people would consider relatable that might not be something rooted in these issues we spoke of today because even if Angela could find a show which she's trying very hard to Angeles, a movie and TV connoisseur, we can't find another show too opposite What if you ask nine times out of 10 name a relatable show one of the top What is it like the big three is the joke I would say the big three or How I Met Your Mother the officer friends and nowadays you could chuck in maybe new role in shits Creek with that five top five for sure that would be relatable, accurate. So yeah, join us on this journey. Join us in this conversation. I know it's a scary one and it's a hard one to swallow no matter your proximity in whatever regard whether it's for Angela and I the way our voices sound on the phone or the way we look or the way we know we've been able to train ourselves to look I know that sounds like we're dogs but or teeth whitening or the ability to own exercise equipment, the ability to go to the gym without getting shamed. The ability to find clothes in your size. The ability to walk through a door are all parts of this conversation that are very relevant and necessary to have to work on being better people

Angela 1:02:47

and don't worry because signing off Mr. Island and on that note thank you for joining us for this episode of in Omnia paratus grab your coffee bowls and don't forget to rate download and follow on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know what you want to hear about bye

Jae 1:03:09

walk with the confidence of a mediocre white man.

Transcribed by