This week we’re pulling back the curtain on our mental health. We’re exploring phobia, early memories, work stress, general anxiety, and how therapy, self care, and mindfulness keep us grounded when things get tough. ​

Show Notes

Transcribed by

Jae 0:00

I pledge myself to the pod loyal I'll always be a P to start a D at the end and an O sitting in between Welcome back to and Omnia products I'm Jae like the letter

Angela 0:15

and I'm Angela also known as AVO

Jae 0:18

Oh I know what I wanted our intro to be. I remember this now.

Okay Go for it.

What's my name on your phone?

Angela 0:24

Oh, okay you are Let me pull this up you are j last name peachy anchor umbrella with rain emoji

Jae 0:33

kh emoji the peach has nothing to do with my butt by the way.

Angela 0:36

Absolutely not. It's a Girl Meets World reference. And now apparently a Justin Bieber song.

Jae 0:42

Are we too old for that?

Angela 0:43

Are we too old for both of those? Yeah,

Jae 0:46

well Girl Meets World was when we were in college, and it was all about the transitional phase of life around your senior to my senior year. So like It Wasn't that I was going through the exact same thing. But a lot of things were out of my control and changing so I had a kinship with the two main characters and then I made Angela Washington cry all the fields

Angela 1:08

Who would have thought that adult Cory and Topanga could do that to us.

Jae 1:12

Oh my god, their son. I remember one of my favorite episodes there kindergartener son all he comes back from school and is crying. My kindergarten girlfriend broke up with me and he's all sad. We're supposed to get married and have Be together forever and ever and ever. And Topanga is like well, silly. That's not true. Like no one does that. Where'd you get that idea? And then and then she's like, Oh, whoops,

Angela 1:36

I know they do give slightly unrealistic expectations for how easy it is to find your person not and I'm sorry how lazy holy completely. unabashedly.

Jae 1:46

I'm I'm comparing the whole Corey fell into the thing at the zoo and Topanga helped him out to the Father who recently got caught bringing his two year old into the elephant encampment at the San Diego Zoo. Okay, I don't understand that. Or the human or the real person,

Angela 2:05

the human

the real person who brought his child into the enclosure also what do you watch that video of him getting our awesome yeah, drops the kid inside the the enclosure climbs out himself then reaches back in for the kid you're we're gonna drop the kid anyway. Just stick the kid through the fence and drop them on the outside. Oh,

Jae 2:26

this is a great transition. Would you like to know why do you think you know why? I don't know. Because what kind of trauma Do you think that two year olds gonna have? having his father dropped him inside an elephant thing? When ages zero to five are the most formative and a young child's brain

Angela 2:44


so much so much that this kid will never even know about but will slowly need to unpack probably starting in his what will say like preteen years

Jae 2:54

preteens probably when it's gonna start manifesting and then late teens 20s maybe work it out 30s

Angela 3:00

actually work it out. do three month check ins just to make sure that everything's up to par probably I remember when I took AP psych

Jae 3:08

It was one of my favorite classes when it got to the time with the diagnoses as most young people do kind of like women. It was like Web MD when we were worrying about all of the dissociative disorders and ADHD and bipolar disorder every time we're teachers like symptom is like can sometimes feel very happy and very sad like oh my God, we have everything. Do I have multiple personalities? Is that what I'm gonna get? My therapist recently made me think I might have multiple personality disorder it's not that but it's one of the traits I have I'm fine guys don't worry I've one personality if I'm fed or not fed or overheated, but like that's it I promise wait. So

Angela 3:46

one personality for each of those are one personality regardless of those

Jae 3:50


Angela 3:52

Well, though,

you said I have one personality if I'm fed if I'm overheated if I Oh no, those are individual.

Jae 3:58

Okay, individual people at the roundtable.

Angela 4:01

Got it. Okay,

Jae 4:02

kinda like Barney Stinson and his personality and his like people per District of New York boroughs of New York.

Angela 4:07

Oh, okay, I

got you

Jae 4:08

the rhyming episode. Yep. That's a great episode AP psych. I remember the first time learning that most things that affect who we are what we are, why we are what we see the world as our before the age of five.

I started kindergarten up for

meaning I was in most of my life has just been how I responded between pre kindergarten and my first two months of kindergarten. And yes, that's like a figure I'm sure people go more or less whatever. This is our episode to use and speak freely. Why I created spot on my feet, its platform, whatever we want to go with. So

Angela 4:43

everything in your life is based off of a kindergarteners response continue.

Jae 4:47


Angela 4:48

The way you interact and the way you see and the way you like reason and like your beliefs are by then. So Angela, like what's one big thing that happened in your life before the age of five, just one well, like you've had trauma After that, but like we're gonna go with like a foundational one, and then like a shaping one. And then like, I didn't realize this one. So one would be, my mom had an undiagnosed seizure disorder. And from the ages, I think from two to four was when it was found, and then when doctors were trying to adequately treat it and get it under control, but it took a long time. But I remember that there was one instance where we were leaving some sort of event and dropped another family member off at their home. And my mom picked me up to leave because it was late at night. And then all of a sudden, I just remember, like, moving down, and I couldn't really understand because it was just like, everything was moving really slowly. My mom was falling, and she was like, losing her grip on me. Were you outside? I'm like cement, we were just inside the door. So she felt

Jae 5:55

good. Yeah, nothing. But other people, not just you a two year old.

Angela 5:59

Yeah. So she, she fell back into the house. And I think my dad was there, my aunt who lived there and a couple other people, and they had to call an ambulance and take my mom to the hospital. And then I had to go, I don't remember the exact sequence of events. But I remember at some point sitting in the car with another one of my aunts and her children, while we were waiting to find out what was going on with my mom, because they weren't letting a lot of people into the emergency room because it was a Saturday night very crowded. And when we did go into the hospital, I then remember being alone sitting in a chair. And all of these people running by and lights flashing, and I didn't know this at the time, but apparently like someone in the ER came in with a gun and was then threatening a doctor,

Jae 6:43

I'm sorry, did a 100 start singing for all, like, help a guy with a knife in his head.

Angela 6:49

Um, I maybe who knows, might have slipped into a bit of an alternate reality there. But that's one of the first memories that I have. And it really informed on the entire way that I thought about health and doctors and hospitals and I worked had to work through a lot of that and really only within will say like the last five to seven years have I actually been okay and not had panic attacks when going into a hospital or completely broken out and broken out in hives. Oh,

Jae 7:23

yeah, I have a few questions. One. So it's like, you know how all squares or rectangles but not all rectangles or squares?

Angela 7:31


Jae 7:32

So you said your mom had an undiagnosed seizure disorder, but that meant epilepsy. So are all seizure disorders, epilepsy, but not all? No, I know. I've asked you this before but like I'm you said all if you get seizures, it's epilepsy. But why would you say that? Is it? Could it not be epilepsy? Well, no, I

Angela 7:51

think I go more with seizure disorder, because it's well, okay, I go more with seizure disorder, because it's easier for people to understand. I've found that when I say epilepsy, people think that that automatically means one type of seizure generally, where you convulse and my mom doesn't have those. She has, ooh, I forget the exact name of it. But basically, it's almost like she spaces out. So it's, it's like, oh, like a 32nd blackout. Kind of? Oh,

Jae 8:20

yeah. So I know, like, no, there were other types of seizures

Angela 8:24

there are

Jae 8:24

They don't portray those on television.

Angela 8:26

They do not with my mom seizures, there's no real like physical symptom other than the fact that she would be non responsive, but it's also for such a short period of time for her that it's hard to tell if she's just she's spaced out really concentrating on something or like she's actually having a seizure.

Jae 8:45

So does a seizure even though there can be physical symptoms have to do more with what's happening in the brain?

Angela 8:51

Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I'm not fully up there on everything with seizures and the different types of epilepsy. But all in her brain, and I think that it goes back to a childhood injury where she was like, running around playing with her siblings, and they were playing baseball. So one of them like swung back really hard with a baseball bat and caught her like right over her eye. Oh, yeah. Second question.

Jae 9:18

You know, or DIY and hot boyfriend Jerry, the other podcast I told you, you shouldn't watch

Angela 9:23

Oh, yes. Okay. I think I know where you're going with this. Just because I recent No, I just recently found out that she has talked a lot about struggling with mental illness and anxiety attacks.

Jae 9:34

Oh, good job. Well, do you do you know why she how she got diagnosed, why she got diagnosed? No. So her one of her old boyfriends unfortunately, he's now passed. He had epilepsy and for one of his first bad seizures, she was the only one with him when it happened. Oh 1718. And then the other reason I was going to bring it up and not to bring it into like influencer, like minimize what you went through obviously, but she also got diagnosed with emetophobia, which I don't know if you've ever formally been diagnosed, but I remember when you told me about this, I was really confused. No, especially that when it manifested in actuality, how much detail you like to give about it? It was a little I was confused.

Angela 10:16

Oh my god. Yeah. So I never formally diagnosed just something that I had a very very strong aversion to. However, I I don't know if you were there or if you had left at this point, or if you maybe were not involved at all, I'm really sorry. My my suit my superpower is failing me right now. But there was an instance in college where one of our friends had a very bad reaction to some food. And

Jae 10:42

that's not even what I was talking about. I talked about with the stomach bug.

Angela 10:46

Oh, yeah, no, but when this happened to her, I sat with her for three hours while it continuously happened. And that that kind of worked me through it was just the intense immersion therapy. No. Oh, yeah.

Jae 10:59

Not recommended at all. So for those who don't follow influencers, mental health, very religiously, emetophobia is the fear of vomiting. I was gonna go with throwing up but sure if you want to make more graphic, that's your choice.

Angela 11:12

Oh, I don't know. It's it's the immersion therapy. Guys. I'm just in it.

Jae 11:17

Yeah. So I remember Angela told me she had a fear of it. Like, I don't remember when it came up. But it might have been there was too much adult beverages involved. And you were really scared. No one enjoys. I don't know. No one enjoys it. But Angela had like this other degree of I don't know, I could be making this up. There are a lot of like nights that kind of blend together through college. One I'm old now to adult beverage just kind of can mess up your brain a little bit. Have you pacing to not that that was that night? Yep. Yeah, I

Angela 11:50

think that actually happened a couple times. But that was also a really big informant on why I didn't want to really drink anymore, because any sort of nausea immediately freaks. It freaked me out. And I'd start to panic, which would only make it worse. But it was like the idea of it happening. What it happened was the exact thing that filled my nightmares. And also just in recent years, I kind of understand this a little bit better as well, with my IBS. When I do throw up, it wholly messes up my digestive system. And I've now figured out that's also why it really freaks me out because I can't stop. This is going in a really weird direction. I am so sorry, everyone.

Jae 12:33

I can't even transition from that.

Angela 12:35

I know I'm so sorry.

Jae 12:37

It's just one of those things where like, at least for her, she says it's the anticipation of it, not the actual act. But yeah, for you if that happens, that's probably why. And then the third question, which we're going to get right from that a little bit is what in CBT therapy one of the phrases I've been learning and have had to been using that I guess after what happened to you at IU for what did you tell yourself when going to a hospital? or What did you anticipate happening that made you so anxious and nervous? Was it like, Oh, I'm gonna die. I'm gonna have a terminal illness. These buildings are where gunmen are like, what what triggered it?

Angela 13:17

Like Was it the unknown, like so i think i think it was a lot related to the unknown, not knowing where my mom was, or if she was going to be okay. Because back then I'm not exactly sure how much I was aware of or how much I'd already been involved in. But I did know that like, my mom was going to the doctor a lot during those times. And I didn't get to see her a lot because of that. And then also, while this was going on, as well, I think my grandfather on my mom's side, he had cancer and he was in home hospice treatment. And while my mom was working and going to doctors and all of that I would stay with various family members and actually did stay with my grandma and grandpa a lot. So I had like an up close experience with like extended medical professionals that way. So I think like seeing all of that and then knowing like my mom is going here, she's not okay, like what if something's gonna happen to her that's worse than this.

Jae 14:12

But like, What if you were the one go into the doctor? Oh, yeah,

Angela 14:16

if I was going, I was completely freaked out. I was I've always been convinced that there's something like greater wrong with me like anytime I had a headache, it's like, oh, I have a brain tumor. Or if I had a stomach ache, I have appendicitis if I fell and cut myself and these are all thoughts that I had from a very young age. Like if I fell in cut myself, I was like, Oh, it's going to get infected and I'm going to get gangrene and then they'll have to amputate my limb. I just created this very strong, intense worst case scenario response that made me really tried to internalize a lot of my pain and fear and try to self soothe when it came to these things because I didn't want to go to the doctor or the hospital and also just seeing the response. Other people in my family when they had to go to the doctor or hospital either for themselves or for others, I didn't want to bring about that response in them for me, because I didn't want them to have to worry about me. I old hood.

Jae 15:10

Yeah, it's a treat man. It's also one of the things that terrified me about becoming a parent and thinking about you have a kid, ideally, long, healthy life. But those first five years are all like, you really have to like shave them as humans unless like a big traumatic event happens. I learned this in college to change someone's behavior or a set of behaviors, something has happened like prison cancer car crash, that's the only way to really like shake up and reset some of those systems in you. But other than that, zero to five, and zero to two is even more pivotal.

Angela 15:39

Honestly, it's a little overwhelming to think about because not only are you responsible for like shaping this person's outlook on the world, those are also the most breakable years. That's what fully freaks me out about children that small, like, I'm generally confident that I could keep them within the bounds of like good psychology. But what if I dropped them? What if I would

Jae 16:03

maybe what the idea that you want to have a surrogate or adopt? We don't want to put that on the internet or continue that line of concern?

Angela 16:10

Yes. Adoption committee. I will not drop the child. I promise. Oh, my God. Okay. continue moving on

Jae 16:15

childhood fun.

Angela 16:16

I don't know. J, what about you? Do you have? Is there a moment that you remember or something that you don't remember that you know about that has particularly influenced your outlook on life?

Jae 16:26

You're not asking very rhetorically, I'm hoping you're asking rhetorically,

Angela 16:29

yes. I promise. I'm not trying to like pull a specific story out of you just like is there something

Jae 16:35

that Well, no, I know you're not. But like, there should be something pretty blaring.

Angela 16:40

Jay, you In fact, are adopted.

Jae 16:43

Good job.

Angela 16:45

Yes. Might you want to share a little bit about how that has impacted your life experience consciously or subconsciously. So

Jae 16:53

we're still working on this. But when my therapist put framed it as your like we said up to two is when all your neurons and things are firing synaptic, I was adopted when I was eight months old, meaning a third of that two years was in a different country, then I got taken from that environment and move to a different environment with faces I didn't recognize you start recognizing faces at like three months, I think is what Tana, he see Coates is writing on in his book, which is why it's very important to show diverse faces to children. And with quarantine, that's been really hard. I know, some of our sorority sisters who have young kids have been buying books with people of color, they should anyway, but like, there's much less exposure in the real world, because you're not seeing people in the real world. And you're seeing masks and everything.

Angela 17:37

God, that's right.

Jae 17:38

But yes, I was even if it wasn't ideal family situation, which it is I'm very grateful for the fact that I have I was taken out of an environment that I had been used to, and adjusted to in some capacity to a new country where people were different. Everything was different different time zones. And unfortunately, at that time, surprise, surprise it be I'm sure it surprises everyone out how verbal I am I was nonverbal, because you couldn't really speak before then. So anything that I needed to express or anything that was going on with me when I don't remember and to I couldn't articulate because baby. So working through that, even in the best case scenario, I think is kind of what therapy has been helping me with. It doesn't matter how great your family is here or how great your family was there at such a young age being transitioned, at that extreme of a level is a traumatic event.

Angela 18:31

So when you were young, did you do any sort of therapy to start addressing this? Or has this been something you've worked on mainly as you've gotten older.

Jae 18:40

So in late elementary school, I started talk therapy and my therapist, we would always go get mochas and coffee, kay at the cafe down the street. And I would normally talk about things not as serious, more kind of friend drama things at school and just kind of my mom wanted me to have someone who's completely objective out of our realm, and more than just mine.

So it was good for

that. But I remember when I told a few people, they're like, oh, like, what's

wrong? Like,

what happened to you? When I found out I was in therapy, and I was like, nothing happened. My mom just wanted to give me like another place to talk. But there was a huge kind of thing with it. And being in therapy at that time. I used to tell my friends I had doctor's appointments. Really? Yeah. Because, like

Angela 19:20

what what was said to you,

Jae 19:22

like, oh, like, Are you okay, like, Did something happen in your life? Like, what's wrong?

Angela 19:26

Like, are you okay? And when you gave your response, like, what was their response after that?

Jae 19:30

It's not like, Oh, just kind of confused. No, I

Angela 19:34

think that that's something that I'm definitely a little bit envious of future generations, because the way that therapy has become normalized, or is trying to become normalized, they won't have to go through that.

Jae 19:45

Definitely. And I think that I always, I don't know, there's my being to get to existential it's a thing of like, if everyone's depressed are we depressed or are we just are we over diagnosing if like we're all depressed is anyone depressive is it Part of the human experience where people really different in different generations, like was there enough this level of depression? Or is it that we're just more open and have a better grasp on why our mental health is so impactful and so important?

Angela 20:13

I mean, I feel like mental health. And just like a lot of things now, like, it's going to go through these different waves of transition, as we try to find an equilibrium to really address it. Because I think that in previous years, and previous previous generations, a lot of things were under diagnosed. So I think we're right now in a period of overcorrection, definitely, and then slowly, that's going to start to even out because I think that I don't know, I never did formal therapy as a child. But my elementary school offered this informal talk therapy for small groups of kids to be with their peers and share similar experiences, and talk that through with an adult who had either like retired from therapy, or like,

Jae 20:58

you mean from being a therapist, or like, who'd retired from going to therapy,

Angela 21:03

who was a retired therapist, or had some sort of like, child academic counseling knowledge or something like that. So I did that from I think, third to eighth grade. Oh, and that was, it was an interesting experience, because it was offered through the school, and everyone knew about it so

Jae 21:22

that it was offered or everyone knew who was going,

Angela 21:25

everyone knew who was going out like a certain time during the week. So I think it went for about six months of the school year, your informal therapist would come like knock on your classroom door and collect you for an hour along with maybe another kid from your class or from the grade above or below you. And then you would go to an empty classroom into one of like the church rooms or to a space outside, and you all would talk together about whatever, whatever you wanted.

Jae 21:52

And then Was this something that the students said that they wanted, or parents decided that their kids should sign up for?

Angela 21:58

So I think parents decided, when I started the school, they recommended I trial it for a few months, just so that way they could like see my transition into the school. And I think they did that for most for most students, it was just whether or not the parents accepted it. So my mom agreed, and then I continued with it for the next few years, because that's when she had cancer. And then after that, I still continued with it, because that's when we got into like a little bit more of general like social dynamics of being a kid and like navigating your life and who you are and your family. And my my parents were never married. And I went to a Catholic school, we have religion unit. At some point during the year, it always comes up different family dynamics. And in these books, which I don't know if they still do, but back then they had sections about children from unmarried parents and how that was not okay, so of course,

Jae 22:51

what about gay parents?

Angela 22:52

I don't think the book had sections on that. Oof. Yeah, so that was just weird. So when I came home and started talking about that, like, Oh, so and so said this, like what I don't understand, because my parents have never had problem with that. That's just that's who they are. That's how our family is. We all we are all part of a unit gather. But then when kids started questioning that I didn't question it. But I was really confused about why it was such a complicated concept for them, because I don't like we'd all known each other for a long time already. So yeah, so I continued. So I continued with that for seventh and eighth grade. So it like I don't know if there was ever any sort of stigma around it. Or maybe there was maybe I just didn't know because when people decided that they wanted to talk about it, like I was never in the classroom. Yeah, I think that it's like all kids at some point need some form of therapy.

Jae 23:36

I think all people need some form of therapy period. That trying to decide how I want to enter this so we don't change at the episode. So I think one of the problems with religion on the way my therapist phrases that we should make the unknown known but don't make the uncertain certain. So for example, more of a current example, being an Asian American or Angela being an exotic American, do not use that term. I use it out of endearment and because we have a long rapport and friendship over that. Do not go calling people have ambiguous racist, exotic

Angela 24:12

PSA of the day.

Jae 24:14

Yeah, but I'm when I'm so gonna, the disclaimers, I forgot my point. When we enter the world, we know that the outside world is racist, sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal. And we as of now unfortunately have to exist in that world. That is what we know. However, if someone came and robbed Angela or I, we, unless they say a slur, or an accusatory slur, it could be because we're small. It could be because Angela wears blue batanes out now, because she's that kind of girl. It could be because I have a nice purse. It could be because we're alone. And if we were to decide that it was racially motivated without having factually, that's just not the whole story. of what could be going on. And what religion does, in some instances is give people that certainty that it's really hard to sit within the world otherwise, especially as we all know, surviving a pandemic. We don't know why this disease exists. We don't know why this virus happened. We don't know why were the ones who exist through it. And that's kind of hard to deal with.

Angela 25:26

I think that is a really great way to put it because one of Personally, I had a pretty great religious upbringing overall. Like, Jay, we've talked about this before. And we're not going to get too deep into it today. But we can one day I had two gay priests growing up. So I had a very, very expanded view of what

Jae 25:45

were they out? They both did come out while you were there or after?

Angela 25:49

Yes, okay. Yeah. Wow. Like, while I was attending their church services, I wasn't there when they actually came out. But both of them did come out. So it's, I liked my overall like, expand and they didn't burn walking into

Jae 26:01

the church.

Angela 26:03

Like I like I liked my overall expanded view of volunteerism. But the way that it was always explained to me growing up is like this is really important, because it's a good foundation. It's like, maybe you won't stay with it. But this is your starting point for how you navigate through uncertain times. It's like instead of eating into desperation, look for comfort, reach out for community.

Jae 26:28

That sounds very fortunate because something I've been seeing a lot of Is there a lot of particular counselors and therapists dealing in religious trauma.

Angela 26:36

Oh, yeah, no, I one of the things that I get most often from people right now as as we're filming this, we're at the very end of lunch. And I've had to express to a few people like, Oh, no, sorry. Like, I'm not meeting you for dinner. I'm not eating meat today. Oh, you're Catholic. I feel so sorry for you. Really, I'm I'm confused as to why you feel that way. But thank you for sharing with us also, as this comes out. This is going to be after our sorry, episode. Correct?

Jae 27:03

Yeah. So I've never had problems with being Jewish. And having one of the things I love, and I was always promoted to about Judaism is it's about asking questions. And we all know how much I love to ask questions. And I think that again, like everything, religion takes the good leave the bad, and it's about using it as a support but not an answer.

Angela 27:27

I think that is the best way to put it.

Jae 27:29

Thank you, you may transition now. So

Angela 27:30

we've given you a little bit of a background into our childhood trauma. But I know right now, the reason that we are talking about this, because it's also very fitting for us. We are both currently in therapy, and it's Mental Health Awareness Month, and that is mental health awareness month that too. So yeah, I guess I don't know. Jay, would you like to start? Would you like to share your story

Jae 27:51

like my life story by?

Angela 27:55

Well, no, you you start you started therapy again, last summer, right? I

Jae 27:59

started in the fall of 2019. Right before we left for Europe. Oh, okay. But then I took a break during quarantine because I wasn't doing anything to be traumatized or to work through, I could have used it. But it wasn't a time where I felt like I wanted to do zoom therapy. I didn't love the idea of doing therapy in this in my my room and my space, because then it kind of like taints the space, not like in an oral way. But like I'm now associated with my room being where I do therapy, and doesn't feel as safe. Even though therapy is a safe space. It's messed with me,

Angela 28:34

I get that because it's nice to have that separation of where you do things like I only try to do work in the kitchen.

Jae 28:41

Yeah, I can say, I mean, I guess we could go on and on about everything. I'm learning in therapy, how to not therapist yourself how things to work on. But one of the things I've recently my therapist and I have been going over is kind of triggers. And when you react to something very strongly after it's happened, feelings only are supposed to last between 30 and 90 seconds. So kind of going beyond that to what the belief is. So the first example I gave Angela was actually in the story. We went to Paris last fall to falls go Yeah, and on our first night there, we let me wind back on Oh, we were in Paris. I'm a very type a structured person. I don't I like to plan I don't like I'm not a big go with the flow person. But on this particular night, I was trying to be a little bit more casual. Brian being the operative word, so we go to dinner. And then there was a bit of a depth perception problem here because our Angela and our other friend wanted to walk to the Eiffel Tower. and in this situation, I didn't have my wallet on me because originally I think we were just gonna go for a short walk or we were getting gelato or something that wasn't going to be an extensive period of time out. I didn't bring I didn't bring a purse. I didn't bring anything on me. I think I had my phone and that was it. And again, that perception when you're walking on the side and like the Eiffel Tower is very large so it looks closer than it is. So we're walking down there, and then I start panicking because like, I don't even know if I have my phone on me. No, I did. I didn't have I didn't have the things to make me feel safe for an extended period of time alone at night, I just I didn't because I thought we were just going for like a quick outing. So I was trying to be fun and trying to not do anything. Unbeknownst to Angela and our other friend. By the way, this wasn't something I was actively happening. But I was really uncomfortable. And my thought was, by the time I started to really get anxious about this, we were about halfway there. And our other friend had never been to Paris before Angela and I both fortunately, had had the opportunity. So I was like, I don't want to take this away. I don't want to do anything. So I just start getting more and more and more anxious as we're walking and trying to figure this out. And when we finally get there. I like take a breath and stuff and they start talking about wanting to let go to bars that night. And I like lose it because I even now like I just felt so anxious and it was like, I didn't want my anxiety to impact them and what they wanted to do because it was the first night. The second night. I

Angela 31:00

think the first night. It goes the first night.

Jae 31:02

Yeah, cuz you hadn't broken your knee yet. You broke your knee after this happened.

Angela 31:07

Yes. Oh my Lord.

Jae 31:08

So I was just like super anxious, super uncomfortable. And it was the thing I originally

Angela 31:12

Do you remember why we went out for the first thing? Um, oh, we got dinner. And then we had dessert. And then I think we wanted to see how something looked at night. So there was a reason that we were on the river.

Jae 31:27

We hadn't eaten dinner because you guys brought food back after lunch. I don't know why we had gone out to somewhere like five minutes away from our Airbnb, like, literally five minutes away. And I could have and probably should have just asked them to turn back so I could go grab my purse, because I'm not someone who leaves without things. I just I'm a survivalist. Or as Angela says like my office, I'm over prepared. And not being over prepared, like left me with some sort of real pain in my stomach, especially being in a foreign country. It just like was not sitting right with me. And I told my therapist the story. And even now we can see I have some very strong feelings attached to it and feels like I'm back in that anxiety even though I'm two years removed from it. So the question then becomes what belief and or thought processes and or neuron connection is there to feed me the feelings I'm still having now? Where are we since I'm crying now? I don't know the answer this. So we know what are we talking about next time I have a session? Oh, I'm

Angela 32:25

sorry. No, it's it's the hardest thing when you can't figure out where those emotions are coming from and how strongly it informs this reaction in you. So we're gonna take a brief pause moment and recenter the two of us, what do

Jae 32:39

you need to center from?

Angela 32:41

I'm giving you a moment to center dominance.

Jae 32:43

I'm fine. It's a it's I think Angela has a similar thing. So this will be her jumping off point of being a burden to others. And I think that also has to do obviously with how one views themself. And that's kind of the route I get to currently try to work out. But yeah, catch.

Angela 33:01

She started her most recent therapy journey few years ago, paused and picked it back up. It's sometimes it can really be a lifelong journey of trying to figure everything out and see all of the different ways that things impact each other. So one of the ways that this has really started to come full circle for me is that around the same time that Jay started going to therapy, I was prescribed to group therapy, and I didn't necessarily think that I needed it. But I went in just for a regular doctor's appointment. And while I was sitting there It wasn't my usual doctor was another doctor and he was just looking at me He's like, well, how are you doing? I'm fine. I'm stressed I'm late for work, Can Can we please get this over with so I can get to work. He's like, just hold on a second and he comes back with this clipboard and he tells me she just take my time and fill out this assessment though. I'm looking at the top of it and it says g A f score global assessment of functioning and then goes into describe how this is an assessment of my mental health. I'm yeah, so I'm just I'm sitting here looking at this questionnaire essentially and feeling so resentful of this doctor but I'm also reading through it I'm like more than half of these questions currently apply to me and my mental state. I checked everything that I needed to to keep it at like a baseline of mental health because it actually gave me like the entire grading scale. But at the same time, I was like, Oh, no things aren't right. So I checked just enough to put me on the tipping edge. And he asked if I would like to go to therapy though. I said yes, sure. Why not? Let's do it. What were some of the questions so Oh, okay, sorry. I guess I should explain a little bit about the some of the questions that I saw on mine because the questionnaires are a little bit different wherever you see them are Have you felt hopeless in the last few weeks? Have you found it hard to focus or complete tasks? Are you procrastinating Have you been overeating or refusing food? Does the thought of making or keeping plans make you feel overwhelmed? Are you speaking or move so slowly that it would almost be unnoticed and so you had to answer all of these yes or no and then rate them once a few days half of all days or more than half of all days keeping in mind that this is evaluating or feeling over a period of two weeks so i definitely freaked out a little bit because i've heard of the jf before and it's used by medical professionals to assess where your mental state is and how well you're functioning in your daily life and whether or not you need immediate intervention so like the thought the thought of immediately thought of immediate intervention because i'm a worst case scenario person was positively terrifying but as i was sitting there like looking at this piece of paper i was like well maybe i do need something more so i went to cbt group therapy cognitive behavioral therapy and was actually really helpful because affirmed to me that some of the things that i was going through like they weren't just in my head things that i thought were making that made me a little crazy and yes i know the word crazy is canceled but that's just how it felt and then i had this really great workbook that i could then take and use at any time that i felt anxious or overwhelmed i could pull that out and walk myself through different grounding techniques and meditations to try to lower my anxiety but i don't know so we we started our podcast journey in july or august of last year

Jae 36:19

it was april of 2020 is when we started than july we kind of started recording october we rebranded and okay remember is when we launched

Angela 36:29

yeah so in july we've like started are like just try it recordings has my pc like he wants to put out weird content on the internet to live forever but then i think in october we did the rebrand so then in november we started really recording and for december and then like doing like the show notes and like things to go along with that for the instagram and everything and you do all of the editing so i hear it once it's all put together but listening to myself my audio seems so weird to me and at first i thought it was just because i had to listen to my own voice for an extended period of time

Jae 37:01

that's part of it

Angela 37:02

yeah if you've never done that before try it and it's the weirdest thing ever and then you'll never want to do it again

Jae 37:06

that shepard says to do that if you ever want to kind of see how you interact record yourself either i mean i know therapists i've recommended this to like record yourself having a fight or just see how you interact record yourself having a conversation oh man

Angela 37:18

continue though but listening to my audio back everything seemed so weird and slow and choppy and disjointed it basically felt like i was listening to a stranger and i think that's really the first time it kind of hit me again like i've thought of that little j f score and i realized that there was something a lot bigger happening than my usual baseline anxiety and i had to think about what my next step was and

Jae 37:45

i an episode hmm

Angela 37:47

yeah so fun so yeah so like i really had to think about it so i called i called my doctor and i think it took about a week for me to get in and speak to an intake therapist where she had me do my gi f again and then talk about different things that were going on in my life and 10 minutes into our conversation i broke down and i just sobbed i'd like she started she started this by saying that this was just going to be a 30 minute intake and that there wasn't going to be any therapy today you

Jae 38:17

worried her

Angela 38:19

yeah and that like depending upon where our conversation went she would either give me a referral for one on one therapy or i could go back to group therapy and i just saw and i think she stayed on the phone with me for an hour and a half and she had she had to therapy me yeah it was a lot but i guess i don't know so this is one of those things where a lot of people in my life within the context of therapy have used different analogies with me make sure like you're taking care of yourself like before you hit the wall like pump the brakes before you hit the wall make sure your bucket doesn't overflow make sure the car doesn't run out of gas or my favorite which is keep your toast from burning which is also sort of a weird one because at the same time

Jae 39:00

you i like my toast almost burnt

Angela 39:02

oh yeah no i do not like that i like it like practically just bread the tiniest hint of golden but yeah no like as she was asking me all these questions i realized that so many of them applied to me and especially the one which was are you speaking or moving so slowly that people almost wouldn't notice which doesn't actually mean that like you're trying to like go through like this like weird mime routine or your speech patterns like cell effected that if you were to try to speak up or try to start a conversation you wouldn't even technically be considered like bulldozing you because the other person wouldn't even be aware that you were trying to which apparently has been the way that i've been speaking for at least the past six months because this entire podcast journey has just sort of showed me like the general decline of my mental state as my thoughts and speech just continue to get more disjointed and jay has to do more editing work

Jae 39:54

yeah i mean to be fair in podcasting term one second of not here Anything is a lot more alarming than one second in video or other formats or on a phone call or something. It's really alarming if there's more than like half a second. And then also, I just want our podcasts to typically be a little bit snappier. So I do like the breaks even more than that. It's not for me, it's not that Angela's been speaking slower. It's that it seems like she's had to think a lot more to come up with an answer. Oh, yeah,

Angela 40:23

I, I don't know, one of the things that generally sort of gives me anxiety in new situations is that I'll be unprepared or say the wrong thing. But it feels for every conversation, that's been something that's come up recently, and even even just talking to Jay or my mom, or like a co worker about something that I'm really knowledgeable in. It's like walking up a steep incline. It's like walking up the hill to the greenhouses in college. That's what it feels like, anytime I have to have a conversation. And I know that doesn't mean anything to a lot of you. But it's this really, really steep hill where like it just it's so I was always driven to the greenhouses. Oh, I should have found someone to do that for me. But yeah, that's my really terrible analogy for this is the craziest uphill battle I've had to go through. But yeah, but it's good. Because now there's therapy involves I did my intake, I have this really nice therapy app where I do like 10 or 15 minutes a day, where it's my self meditation and self assessment. And I have to think about where I am, what's going on in my life. And this is all while I wait for like my formal intake to be completed, because I don't know why. But I got assigned to a therapist in New Jersey. So we're gonna be doing zoom therapy. Fun.

Jae 41:44

Is the app public? Or is it through your healthcare?

Angela 41:47

So I think it is actually it either it is public, or it's going to be public. I know they sent me a link for a special download. So it feeds back into my health care provider. And they also accept the cost of it because I think I don't know what it actually costs. But like she told me because like I told her, I was like, Oh, yeah, I was like, I will download this right now. Like sorry for taking up all that taking up this time. Like I know you said this was only going to be 30 minutes. She's like, Oh, no, she's like, wait for the link. She's like, because otherwise she's like, I don't want you to have to pay for it and

Jae 42:16

got it because I feel like now I've cried you've become a turtle and speech time to kind of turn this around. Honestly, like the least likely person ever I've started what has helped What do you think either takeaways from their PE things that actually help? Surprisingly, we're only at an hour which I think means both of us have been speaking for. I feel like I've been speaking forever. But my therapist had me start meditating. And I've always just want to never wanted to meditate like meditating is dumb. I've tried it in the past. I've lived her I promise I've tried it. Got the calm out. I've gotten headspace like anyone and Folgers pushed on me I have downloaded I have tried even calm where they have Harry style stories I have tried. They don't work for me.

Angela 42:56

Wow, I can't believe Harry Styles didn't work.

Jae 42:58

I'm envisioning Harry style. So my head's not real. My heads busy. Okay,

Angela 43:03

that makes sense.

Jae 43:04

I'm thinking of him in his cute dimples and all the music videos. But the app my therapist recommended, which I've sent to a lot of friends, I don't know if Angeles, you've actually tried it. It's called the Healthy Minds program. And what I like is they have a few pillars that kind of go with it, awareness, connection, insight and purpose. And every other audio file is either a learn, so they're kind of informing you about what you're going to do and like why it's important. And then a practice and the practice I like because you can pick between five and 30 minutes. And then if you're going to do it sitting or or not acting or active, whether you're walking or you're doing chores, or whatever you're doing, you can do like a light workout, or you can just sit for the time. And I like having the option because sometimes, like sometimes there's two inches in your body to sit for 1520 minutes. And sometimes I can just when I started I could just do the five minutes more than me sitting for two seconds was already two seconds too long. But I've worked my way up and now I try to do between 10 and 15. Right being the operative word, but I think what meditation has helped me do especially along with CBD CBT oops, I God, Freudian slip. It's helped me be able to catch my thinking patterns as they happen, if that makes sense.

Angela 44:19

Oh, yeah, I was just gonna say one of the exercises that I really like it isn't direct meditation, but it's just get clear your mind exercise where you have to sit for five to 15 minutes or what I usually do is like I lay down and I hug this lavender scented pillow and you have to practice not holding on to your thoughts. So just like as something pops into your mind. You acknowledge it and then you have to let it drift off. No. So yeah, so it's this whole exercise in learning how not to hold on to negative thoughts or anxious thoughts like anything that's going to like recur and catch your mind in a loop trigger. That greater anxiety response though I've actually I've done this a few times in group therapy like when they want you to get like your base understanding for how your thoughts go. And they told us that within the space of one hour, we have like 7 million thoughts.

Jae 45:17

I've heard something like that. Yeah,

Angela 45:18

like your brain is constantly generating content. So whether you want it to or not like something is going to pop into your head and it's whether or not you can recognize it, and then actively release it. I think that's that's become one of my favorite ones. So I lay on the couch, I have the pillow which you can also microwave which is amazing. Like I even do it in the middle of summer because there's just something about not

Jae 45:40

all pillows, make sure you read yet

Angela 45:42

had a specific microwave safe in views pillow that is actually meant to go inside. Urban Outfitters actually did that for a little while they had like avocados and pizza slices and things like that. They were pretty small, but you just like pop them in for 30 seconds. And then it's like warm aroma therapy. So I love that. And then I've always been a big fan of grounding, but I found out recently that I actually don't ground correctly. Like,

Jae 46:09

what does that mean,

Angela 46:10

there's a better way to do it. So grounding is when you're overstimulated, you could be anxious, frustrated, air, anything like that. And you try to call yourself back to a calm state by reminding yourself of like, where you are already. around you. Yeah, I actually used to do this whole lot when I'd go to the doctor or to the hospital. Like that's the thing. This is the table, the tables gray, that's the door the handle turns to the left, just like reminding myself of like very solid concrete things that would not change. My therapist has actually told me that it's better to work through in specific counts. So it's like go through the five senses and name one one thing in your environment from each one and then slowly increase it so like one thing you see one thing you can touch one thing you can smell one thing you hear and taste yet taste is like a little weird. So I think you can you can sub it out for something that makes sense depending upon where you are like sometimes when I do it, I'm like, oh, like I have gum in my mouth. I'm like, it's minty it's sharp, it's whatever. So that's just like going through like that and so slowly like increasing your account gives your mind more of an area to focus on rather than just jumping around to different things.

Jae 47:30

That's interesting. So this is something that Okay, so these This isn't like this I don't know exactly what this is. And we are not medical professional and or psychology professional and or anything. But my therapist recommended these things from serene science called GABA calm things. And what it says on the back, it's two of the main inhibitory neurotransmitters. It's a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine. So what it does is it helps you get calm faster. I say kind of ambivalent Lily. I don't know. I was talking to my therapist about trying CBD or trying something and she told me to get these they make me a little sleepy. Okay, I don't know fully I don't know how much they're really doing compared to placebo compared to other things because if I take it and I'm not super anxious then I'm not super anxious if I take if I am super anxious, it kind of helps they come in orange I got the mint ones I kind of helps just in general like shake my system a bit so I don't fully know I have them and I've been taking them when I did my datathon back in October I took one before each one to kind of help me a bit oh just how I start figuring out the sleepy thing because I'm like whoo maybe I shouldn't be me is probably not so again I would say test one at home prior to it's not like super sleepy like a Benadryl sleepy it's more it's kind of calm, but it makes me a little like slightly drowsy. So again test before but I've been taking these when I've had some kind of ink when I felt like extra anxious and like they do something.

Angela 49:01

So I've actually seen those I what I discovered recently and completely by accident is I thought I grabbed a poppy drink from our local store because sometimes I go I'm that person though. Like sometimes I go to the deli and I pick up a sandwich there and I'll get like a drink too. And that's like my treat for the week. So I thought I grabbed a poppy but I grabbed the this other soda called recess which has him infusion and something else in it that is supposed to be like clear and calm your mind. Yeah, I drank that. Oh my Lord. I started panicking because I didn't realize it at first because they were the exact same color. I was just sitting there and I got so lethargic, but I felt really calm. That's good. So yeah, so I've had those occasionally when I get super anxious, but when I went to the store, I'm like they're also like $5 A can the like this is not sustainable at all. I actually found the little the Gabba gummies. So I got two different kinds To see like, I think I got one that has GABA and then one that's made by the same ran but it has marigold extra and something else in it that's supposed to promote stress relief. Hmm. Can't wait for the reveal.

Jae 50:13

Yeah, something that my therapist says which is frightening, which I didn't realize I think it is. And you'll have to make sure to factor since depression is the number one reason for disability in the world. Oh, yeah. That's so sad. Yeah. Something else, I think that we should talk a little bit about. We've talked about various apps and or supplements, which again, we're not doctors, pharmacists, anything, do your research, talk to your doctor, I talked to my doctor before I started taking these to make sure they weren't gonna interfere with anything I was already taking therapy can be and is expensive. And it's hard to find a therapist, I, my mom found my one when I was a kid. And to get the one I have now I'm very fortunate work from the first time I really didn't want a female. So that made it harder. And then going through like this whole intake process and emailing people and trying to figure it out is a lot of work. It sucks. And if you're at the point where you're I want a therapist, I should find a therapist, you don't want to go through the frickin bachelor and try out like 30 therapists to find someone because that's draining and you're already drained, because you want to seek therapy. And on top of that, it's expensive. And some health insurances don't cover it

Angela 51:17

exactly. No, I was That was my first question when I signed up recently. So I was like, Wait, how much is this going to cost? Because so I have my health insurance through work. And for whatever reason, I think I'm the only one who has my health insurance plan. So when I know I have a co worker who's talked to me a little bit about like her therapist, and she really likes her. So I was considering like, oh, maybe I should go to her. But we're not on the same network. And like she was talking about how it's like it's actually pretty expensive. So I was really surprised my therapy is covered by my copay. And do you know how much it would be without your copay? I thought it would be about $400 I think, yeah, my co pays $20. Like, I feel so lucky that I have that. And then at the same time, it's like also, it's just this like random wheel of chance that I happen to pick this job that gives me this insurance that provided this plan as an option to do this. $400

Jae 52:13

a session for 50 weeks out of the year. I close it is $20,000 Oh lord. I mean, I know we're getting stimulus checks, but like I can't afford $20,000 a year. I mean, I'm currently unemployed, but like angele, you have a relatively good job could you afford if paying $20,000 a year for therapy? Not really.

Angela 52:33

I mean, here's the thing, ideally, maybe but at the same time, it's like that would be a lot of what I could use for life. That's what a lot of other people need to use for life. So why why do we make it so expensive,

Jae 52:45

so expensive, something that I think there are a lot of great free resources out there. My two cult leaders, Rene brown and Glennon Doyle. I think their books are amazing. I have Bernie Brown. Oh, it's called the gift of imperfection. And then I have her one.

Angela 53:00

Oh, no, it's okay. While you Google, actually, I just remembered recently, I was talking to another friend about how she was starting to see a therapist. And she actually told me about this website called Open or this group called Open path collective, where they're actually therapists that provide affordable in office or online services, though, between 30 to $60, for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. So you do have to fill out an intake form and disclose your income, why you think that you qualify for their services, how it would help alleviate your financial burden that's good, and like where your area is, and they have so I actually looked through just to see like, what their therapists were like. And they have so many different varieties of therapy offered. And I think they had like over 100,000 therapists that were currently signed up to offer services.

Jae 53:51

That's great. The second book I had was Daring Greatly, which was the one I really want to read and an Angela has dare to lead. And then untamed is the gold and oil book. And the head talks from Renee Brown. She has a she's a podcast, which I love to listen to. She has two podcasts, actually, she has multiple TED Talks. And I think there are a bunch of great resources that are not there p but can give you some of the same impacts. One of the reasons I love Bernie brown book so much as I assume they would be qualified under self help, but she is a researcher on shame and vulnerability. Oh, her red Table Talk is really good. All of angele and that one what I love so much about her is she's known for her work and shame and vulnerability and kind of doing that and when I was listening to her in some interview, she's like, I hate being the face of vulnerability. I hate it. I don't I don't like it. Like I wouldn't have chosen this for myself and it just is so relatable in the sense of even she doesn't like to do it and it's very comforting knowing someone who's like a quote like expert in the field and is a researcher and does all this work. Screw this. Like I don't like it either. But it's the way to be the most fulfilled version of yourself. And then another person I really like I wouldn't say this should be your only resource. Whitney coming has gotten very into neurobiology and how our brain works and stuff. So on her podcast, she's mentioned a few very interesting things. I know she went through al anon because I believe either just her mother, both her parents were addicts. And she talks a lot about how al anon and AIA are free resources and it's similar to a group therapy setting I don't know what qualifies you to get into those if you have to, I mean, a with alcohol, I know they're all of the ones that for a flight you have something and then Allen ons if you have someone affiliated with that, like with an addiction, but like those are free resources that give you very similar things. And like my favorite new phrase, the Serenity Prayer is one of their main things that they do there. And I think it's good that there are resources out there that aren't a bunch of money wouldn't come and I've learned a bunch on her podcast listening to her and how, why she loves horses and equine therapy, and now I'm trying to find a horse for myself, because I'm gonna get this wrong. Oh, I

Angela 55:55

think they do that in the East Bay,

Jae 55:57

I will figure out a way to get to these may get acquired therapy, it has to do with horses, our horses don't respond to your horses only respond to your nonverbal cues and your words so they respond to your body language and things. It's really good for children. I know in our sustainability episode, we talk about it with brandy a little bit what it's like to work. I don't know if horses are predatory animals, I don't think they are. But whatever kind of animals they are, they respond more to your body language than the words you're saying. So if you're telling a horse to stop, but you're all crouched over, the horse will not listen to you to command these animals, you need to be able to believe in yourself and your body language. So I think that's really good. She also has a movie called I think it's called the female brain. I don't think it's like the it's the best movie ever made. But it's just a really nice insight. Like one of the things I learned from it is women and men have the same portion of brain. But in the woman, it's smaller in different parts. And men and women's brains are larger and smaller, which is why like women have better memory or men can get aggressive, faster. It just like literally biological. So weird are great resources to help supplement and or if you want to kind of dip your toe into this world and you're not ready for therapy. Everyone

Angela 57:08

doesn't need therapy for the same reasons. But therapy is a good option to explore. Because at some point in your life, you may need someone else to talk to who can speak to you a little better about what you're going through than the people in your life, particularly if they haven't experienced sad things. For example, I what I am going through right now, which led to my meeting therapy I can't really talk about because it involves other people, and they are not ready to share that part of their story. So it's impacting me, but also a lot of people in my life haven't gone through this, nor has their family gone through it. So they can't really relate to my experience. So when I try to talk about it, I get a lot of Oh, I don't know how to help you. I don't what I get a lot of responses. I don't know how to help you. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're going through and, and all of that is okay. I'm not looking for my friends to act as therapists, I would just like them to know what's going on in my life. So that way, when I don't feel like going out, like I'm not in the best of mood, I'm not super talkative, they understand that it's not coming from a place of disinterest and what they are saying or doing, it's because I'm not really having good time handling the range of emotions that I'm currently going through.

Jae 58:28

Thank you. You're welcome. Oh, another thing I feel like we're kind of not going all over the place. But if you think some therapists suck, not all therapists are good therapists and similar to our episode, and in medical advocacy, you deserve to have a therapist who you vibe with who you can work well with who you think really understands what you're going through. I know oh, I never get a name right, Rachel? Oh, my God, she there's so many Rachel's in the world right now. It's not Carlisle. But it looks like Carlisle cargo,

Angela 58:57

I need a frame of reference.

Jae 58:59

She is a she also from the Bachelor. She's a black activists Just kidding. Who's the I believe the founder of the Loveland Foundation, which is a foundation to help black women get therapy and help people in that space because it is not wide enough. Because like Angela said, different cultures view therapy differently. And so a lot of people in those races and cultural backgrounds Don't go Don't become therapists because it's not natural for them. However, it's sometimes easier to have a therapist who's been in similar circumstances, if your therapist is a white man, no matter how much they try to relate to you as a black woman, there's going I'm not saying they can't help you. But like, there's going to be a part that they just don't have the correct tools for. But that doesn't mean they're a bad therapist. But some therapists The point is some therapists are actually not great for you. You shouldn't settle for a therapist because when you're going to therapy, you're trying to become your most vulnerable, open, best self. And if you don't feel you can do that with a person.

Angela 59:54

It's not worth the money. Exactly. It's okay. Sometimes it takes a little time and we understand that sometimes. Not everyone has the time to look into a therapist and shop around and go through multiple sessions. So we understand that it's it's a little bit of that it's it's a struggle, but it's a struggle that's worth it.

Jae 1:00:11

Another thing that my therapist recommended that I try to do and part of CBT Byron Katie, have you heard of her worksheets? I don't think so. So she has a few worksheets that my therapist have me do. One of them is called judge your neighbor, which is where you write about think of a stressful situation with someone for example, argument as you mediate on that specific time place to feel what that felt like and fill in the blanks. So the first one says in this situation, who angers confuses hurt, sad and disappoints you and why, and then it's kind of like a Madlib and then oh wants advice in need? So in this situation, how do you want him or her to change? What do you want from him? Or her? And three is the advice. in this situation? What advice would you offer him or her for is your is the need in order for you to be happy in the situation? What do you need him or her to think say or feel? Or do by this complaint? What do you think of him and her in the situation? Make a list? It's okay to be petty and judgmental. I always am. And number six, what is it about this person and situation that you don't ever want to experience again?

Angela 1:01:11

Okay, so I don't know if I know the name Exactly. But everything you read just sounded so familiar. And I think it's one of the things like we used to do little worksheets like that

Jae 1:01:20

in school, other ones is called one belief at a time, it's a written meditation. So on the belief line, write down a stressful belief, it could be a statement from your neighbor, a stressful belief about someone who you haven't forgiven 100%, or any stressful thought at all, allow yourself to mentally revisit the specific situation that asked the question. So you write the belief down like I'm unworthy of love and belonging? Because that's a fun one. Then the second, the first question is, is it true? Yes or no? And then the second question is, can you absolutely know that it is true? Yes or no? Number three, how do you react? What happens when you believe that thought? And then the fourth one is, what would I be without that belief, and orthos will link all of these worksheets and things in our show notes, because like we said, therapy is expensive, free resources. I don't try to therapies, my friends, because I don't think your friends are necessarily looking for that. But anytime I do have insights on my own behaviors from therapy, or what therapy is taught me, I'm always willing to share. Angela knows this because it is expensive, and we want it's like getting vaccinated. The sooner one of us vaccinated, the sooner we're all vaccinated.

Angela 1:02:23

I agree. And I think that it's also it's given us a little bit of an insight into our friendship, too, because as we've gone through various things, we and we start to unpack them in different ways. I know even when I was doing my group therapy, I realized that a lot of responses that I had to some instances where Jay and I didn't see eye to eye, it wasn't because I actually disagreed with her. Like it was my anxiety talking, well, rude. I know my anxiety is very rude. I guess just like even like getting ready to put out our very first podcast episode. I was like, No, it's not right. It's not okay. People are gonna be upset by it. And then like, I think it was maybe like an hour of you trying to fish around and try to pinpoint exactly what was wrong with it. And I couldn't articulate it. And then as I was moving around my kitchen, I, I saw my therapy workbook, and I had to pause and I was like, I apologize, I now it just like hit me in one instant. I was like, I can now hear how irrational I have been for the last hour, I need to take some time and work through this proceed. I don't believe that my fear that something is wrong is actually wrong. If I go if I finished my workbook section, and I still feel this way, I will let you know i think that this is something beyond what I'm actually feeling. It was a fake feeling.

Jae 1:03:42

The number one way to be happy is like to feel loved and belong with your tribe, whoever that may be. And I think the heart about finding and kind of connecting with others is at the same time as much you want to connect with others. You have to be able to know who you are and connect with yourself first, but we're not really taught how to do that work more taught like be nice to them. Share your toys, go apologize if you hurt their feelings, and we're not really taught of how to handle internal things as well. And it feels like that's definitely one of the misconceptions. I feel like as becoming an adult I remember even being a kid and being like, Oh, yeah, like adults have all this figured out like this doesn't happen and now quarterlife crisis me is like I'm 25 and I don't know things and I know people who have kids right now how do they know things? And they probably don't know things. No offense, but like no one knows things is the point. We're all just trying to figure it out.

Angela 1:04:33

And that's okay.

Jae 1:04:35

I think what we can end on here unless you have anything else is something my therapist had me read. I don't know about you the personal Bill of Rights. Have you seen this? Yes. Do I need to pull it up? No, I haven't pulled up but do you have any thoughts before I read these and then you can comment along so these are the personal Bill of Rights, which are something we should all try to own and be authentic in and live fruitfully. Number one. I have the right to change and grow here here number two, I have the right to take care of myself no matter what number three, I have the right to forgive others. Number four, I have the right to forgive myself hardest $1.05

I have the right to give and receive love, love, I have the right to my own personal space and time needs am straight, I have the right to follow my own values and standard. Absolutely, I have the right to be in a non abusive environment,

Angela 1:05:22

we cannot stress this one enough,

Jae 1:05:25

I have the right to make my own decisions. I have the right to make mistakes and not be perfect. I have the right to be playful. This isn't the one my therapist gave me. But it's fine. I have the right to all my feelings. I have the right to expect honesty from others, I have the right to determine and honor my own priorities. I have the right to dignity and respect. I have the right to end conversations with people who put me down every single time I have the right to my needs and wants being respected by others. I have the right to privacy, I have the right to be happy. I have the right to say I don't know, oh, that's a big one for me from other people.

Angela 1:05:59

I actually love that

one, which I've seen I find working on it. I didn't know that a lot of people didn't feel comfortable saying that they didn't know something.

Jae 1:06:09

Okay. 21 I have the right to feel scared and say that I'm afraid I have the right to say no, I have the right to change my mind. I have the right to not be responsible for others behaviors, actions, feelings or problems. Yes, I'm saying that one again. I have the right to not be responsible for others behaviors, actions, feelings, or problems. I have the right to ask for what I want. I have the right to be healthy. I have the right to express my feelings, both positive and negative. That's where thank yous come in, I have the right to be myself, I have the right to hold others accountable for their own behaviors and not take the blame. I have the right to create the future I

want. I thought that's a funeral. And I was like what? Oh no,

I have the right to be angry at someone I love I have the right to share my feelings. If and when I choose, I have the right to set healthy boundaries, I have the right to recovery. And I have the right to trust those who have earned it. Again, this is not my list, but I'll share this one with Angela because it's the one I just read off of.

Angela 1:07:04

Okay, I still think it's a great list. Me too. And I

Jae 1:07:06

think that's the big one with me is in the best way possible. I've had this relief of when Angela's going through a hard time, it's not my responsibility to deal with it. And that sounds a lot harsher than it's supposed to. But it's a thing of like, Angela's burden is not my burden to deal with. And I feel like in years past when my friends have been hurting, I want to hurt with them, which doesn't sound great. But it was a way for me to express to them. I'm here with you. I'm sitting in this with you. But the thing is, if we're both sitting in it, no one can help us out.

Angela 1:07:42

And not to say that you always need someone to help you out. But if you need it just in case like you You need someone there whose phone there to toss you the lifeline like the lifejacket the life preserver, like whatever you need, in case it is too much for you.

Jae 1:07:58

If someone is down with you, they can't give you what you need. And if what you don't need is for them to be there. But that's where they're choosing to be then they're nothing's happening because if they need you to like give you a week to not text you to fend off others, it's the person who's experiencing it and then if you want to assist that person, it's what can you do for the betterment of them

Angela 1:08:21

not to take on suffering be down without being down. I'm imagining a great eye roll right now. Sure. And on that note, thank you all for listening to this episode of in Omnia paratus grab your coffee bowl and don't forget to rate download and subscribe on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts as always where you lead will follow. So head on over to @inomniapod on Instagram and let us know more of what you'd like to hear about


Jae 1:08:48

put on your oxygen mask before you assist others with it.